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Interview with Lee M. Sherman, July 2, 2002 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Interview with Lee M. Sherman, July 2, 2002
July 2, 2002
Lee M. Sherman, Associate Professor Emeritus, began his career at UNCW in 1976 as a part-time instructor in the department of business and economics. From 1977-1991, he taught full-time as associate professor. Dr. Sherman discusses his education and career before UNCW, including his 33-year career in the U.S. Army. He discusses the classes he taught at UNCW in marketing and management. While at UNCW, he served as Chairman of Business Week from 1979-1991. He was also on the ROTC faculty committee as well as on other university and Cameron School of Business committees.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Sherman, Lee Interviewer: Lack, Adina Date of Interview: 7/2/2002 Series: Voices of UNCW Length: 79 minutes

Lack: My name is Adina Lack and I’m the archivist and I’m here with Lee Sherman who will be giving us an interview today as part of our oral history program.

Lack: Lee, could you please state your name for the tape.

Sherman: It’s Dr. or Colonel Lee M. Sherman. I’ve been with the university since 1976 I first started associating myself with it. I came on full-time in 1977, after being a management consultant with A.T. Carney in Chicago and after a thirty-three year career in the military where I went from private to full colonel in that many years.

My greatest enjoyment has been with UNCW. That’s been my last job, my last position since I developed coronary problems and had a quadruple bypass and had some difficulties with small strokes after that. So I decided that I would give up Business Week, and give up my teaching career, and just devote myself to volunteer work. I’ve enjoyed myself, and I’ve enjoyed the university since my association.

Lack: That sounds good. You had a long career before you came to us. Can you tell me how you got interested in going into the military?

Sherman: Yes. It’s a long story, but I’ll make it short. In 1943, when I was seventeen-years old, all of my friends were being drafted and I was always the youngster in the crowd. I didn't want to be left behind so when all my friends went, who were eighteen years old, when I was seventeen I went to the draft board and I said I want to go with my friends.

Lack: Really.

Sherman: So we all went into the service together, at the same time. Half of my friends went to Atlantic City, New Jersey where they were put in the signal corps. The other half went to Miami, Florida where they were put in the Army Air Corps. And I was sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina as a filler infantryman on March 10, 1943, and I didn't see any of my friends for four years (laughter).

Lack: Isn’t that interesting, you were the only one.

Sherman: Then, after World War II, I got out and I was one of the youngest master sergeants in the service. I was only about twenty-two. I stayed in the reserves because I knew, at that time, when I got out in June of 1946, that we were starting to have trouble with Russia already and I said I didn't want to go back in as a buck private again and do all the KP and the guard duty and all the really difficult work of a private. I didn't want to start over again so I stayed in the reserves as a master sergeant and then, while I was at the University of Maryland getting my undergraduate degree, I received a second lieutenant commission in the infantry reserve.

So, when I graduated in 1950, I graduated in uniform on my way to Korea. I was sent to Korea where the fighting was going on. I was an infantry officer. I came back, I was transferred from Korea to Japan, and was promoted to first lieutenant and then, on the way back from Japan, I was promoted to captain. I received a regular Army commission, so I made it a career, and also served in Vietnam and northern Thailand, in Vietnam, while the fighting was going on.

It was quite a very interesting career. I did enjoy it. I came very close to being promoted to general, but my age caught up with me. They wanted forty-five-year-old generals and I was fifty-two already. So I retired and went into consulting for two years. Then from consulting, while I was consulting, I saw Norm Kaylor who was the department head of business and economics that we had here at UNCW.

I had built a retirement home out at Olde Point. I wanted to keep busy. I felt healthy and wanted to make some kind of contribution to the community. So I saw Norm and told him, I gave him my resume, and said I would like to teach. He, at that time, said they had no vacancies. We had a grand total of seventeen in the entire department and that included economics, finance, accounting, and marketing and management and statistics.

I think the story was that Norm had hired an outstanding individual, who was an author, and he was supposed to teach marketing. At the last minute, salaries here at UNCW were extremely low, and at the last minute this gentleman called Norm and said, "Sorry, I’ve got a much better offer," and Norm was in a quandary as to what he was going to do to fill this marketing position so he gave me a call. He said, "Come on down. I want you to start teaching marketing in September."

This was in July. So for the first month and a half, I worked without any salary, just making up lesson plans. Then I taught marketing for several years and I really enjoyed marketing very much. I didn't want to leave it, but then we hired Arvid Anderson and Honeycutt and several marketing experts. I was put into the field that I felt comfortable, well, I felt comfortable in marketing, but I also felt very comfortable in management, and management became my field.

Steve Harper and I were the only ones teaching marketing and later we hired Sheila Adams and Charlie West. We just grew from a department of seventeen into a school of about fifty or sixty professors. Then, we were not accredited at that time, but one of our goals was to become accredited. This meant that we started hiring only terminal degrees. We eventually became accredited. The school is probably one of the best cash cows, or was when I was there, for UNCW.

Now I guess it’s turned out to be Education and Nursing where they have many, many vacancies throughout the country and throughout the world. I think that the graduates of UNCW are holding their own. I’ve had many come back and thank me for the production management course that I taught because they are production managers today. It’s been a very rewarding career and I’ve enjoyed it very much.

Lack: Sounds like it. So you got your undergraduate degree while you were in the military.

Sherman: No, while I was in the Reserves. But, while you’re in the Reserves, your reserve time counts after you get a certain number of years. After you get ten years of active duty, your reserve time counts for pay purposes and later towards retirement. I think, to get back to UNCW though, one of the big assignments that Norm gave me was to be director, Chairman of Business Week.

Business Week started, let’s see, I think it was about 1979 when I was just on board for a short period. The idea was in Norm’s mind to have this Business Week which would be a bridge between the student and the business world, to bring in guest speakers, cancel the classes that we had for that period of time, which was for an entire week. It would last Monday through Saturday really. We would have guest speakers. We would publish an agenda.

We would get speakers from the local area and bring them in from Charlotte, Raleigh. Of course, we had no budget at all. We didn't have a dollar budget and everything had to be volunteer, on a volunteer basis. We got so good at it that we even had the local businesses donating lunches for the students: pizza, hotdogs. The quality of the speakers that we got, they were excellent. They would make good instructors out here at the university themselves.

This went on for…well I was chairman for ten years on this. It just kept getting bigger and bigger. We had keynote address speakers. We had Victor Khayam as a guest speaker. We had the CEO of Vic’s. We had some airline CEO’s. The quality was quite good and it kept the students, I think, very interested.

Then we also, in addition to the speakers, we had a college bowl. It was bowl where we had groups of students that would compete against each other. The winners would get points towards their grade. It really worked out quite well and it was interesting. We filled up the auditorium.

Lack: What kind of questions were they asked?

Sherman: They were worldly questions and also questions about their business courses, accounting questions, economics questions and management questions. That lasted for a full day. Then we also, on the last day, had competition between students and faculty on the sports field. We had softball, volleyball. We had hotdogs and various accoutrements that went with it, soft drinks and everything. It was just a real fine week.

Now, when I get invited to Business Week, it’s one day or two days. It was cut back because of the press, I guess, of classes and the fact that that’s an awful long time to take out of a student’s work semester, a full week.

Lack: And it’s a lot of planning and work.

Sherman: We had to get the instructors, the various presenters to give up their daily job for a lesson plan and come out and talk for the full fifty-minutes that a class would take and then the students would go to another class. They had their pick of as many as five or six instructors that they could go to. So, we asked the presenters to have not just one presentation, but two, so that those that would miss one could do the other. The juggling, coordination was really something.

That took my…even though I taught summer school every year, that took what free time I had, was preparing for Business Week because that was a fifty-two week planning operation to get it to go. Then we would always have a keynote address speaker. The keynote address speaker would be someone of high caliber who was well known in the business world. We filled up the auditorium, not our Cameron Auditorium, but Kenan Auditorium.

It was very successful. We opened it up to the public, on a space available basis, and they were able to…any of the local citizens could come in and fill up the seats. We always had a full house.

Lack: Was it in the spring generally?

Sherman: It was usually in the spring so we could play softball and the weather was nice. Oh, one other thing, we would have a pig-picking. I mean we just went all out. I think the pig-picking, we finally did have to get a budget for because pig-preparers wouldn’t volunteer their services. They wanted to be paid and they had to come from out of town with all their gear and their tenderloin, their pork tenderloin. It was just a real good time

Lack: Well it sounds like it. It was a real service to the university.

Sherman: It was a hard job really. It took an awful lot of preparation and it ate up all my free time. Norm recognized that and kept me on a minimum number of committees, although I was on quite a few. I think the biggest committee that I served on was the ROTC Committee because of my military background. I served on that for the entire time that we had ROTC here at UNCW. We had an excellent program.

It was just several weeks ago I ran across one of the older PMS that they had, Lee Hanna. He brought me up-to-date. He’s now teaching Junior ROTC at one of the surrounding communities. That ROTC committee, it ran…we had an excellent staff. We had an excellent ROTC staff. They did a good job and it was a shame that we had to disband it because of monetary limitations.

Lack: Really? So you were here when it ended?

Sherman: I was here when it started, and I was here when it ended, yes. I was on the ROTC board.

Lack: We have some information and some scrapbooks from the ROTC days. I don’t know much about it, but a lot of students would be surprised to know that we had ROTC here. It was a good program and I’m sure there would be support for it in the community.

Sherman: Oh yeah, but it costs a lot of money to run one of those programs and to furnish the uniforms and all the texts. Then, also, the students were paid. Their last two years of ROTC, they received a monetary stipend. That helped a lot of the poorer students get through. Also the honor graduates were offered permanent regular commissions which made them, put them, on a par with West Pointers, not in the military education program, but at least on the active duty situation. It was an excellent program. It’s a shame it had to go.

Lack: I know committees can take up a lot of time if you’re teaching. Of course everyone wants to spend the time teaching, but so often there’s other responsibilities. What other committees did you serve on?

Sherman: Let’s see, I served on about four other committees at the same time. I know we met in different buildings. I’m trying to think what the committees were, but they were all university and the members were from all sections of the university.

Lack: Did you always know that you wanted to teach sometime after you retired from the military?

Sherman: No, I really did it more as a challenge to myself because I thought that if I had had a little more experience in speaking, then I may have been promoted to general.

Lack: Well you seem to be very good at speaking now. You don’t stammer.

Sherman: I don’t stammer, are you kidding? I’ve had all these little mini-strokes and when I read now, it’s like the…dog…jumped. I used to just be able to glance at a note card and then put the note card down and I had it all in my mind. Well, that’s a function of age, I guess, and the open-heart surgery, having your heart on a life support machine, having the heart worked on while your body was on a life support machine. If they get too many bubbles, you are going to have these mini-strokes.

That open-heart surgery is not all that it’s cracked up to be (laughter). No pun intended. Like my cardiologist said, “You knew you were going to have a quadruple bypass." It was supposed to be five, but one of them was so clogged they couldn't do anything with it and it was just a small one, so they didn't care. He said, “Your mind knew it, but your body thought it was hit by an 18-wheeler." But I’ll be seventy-eight-years-old in October and I feel very fortunate that we’re here in Wilmington and I’ve got a good wife and a nice home and a fair retirement. I just feel happy and content.

Lack: That’s good. That certainly helps, I think, to have that outlook if you’re having other physical challenges as well. Who were some of the influential people when you worked here? You mentioned Norm Kaylor. Were there some others?

Sherman: Well, Norm was a kingpin for the department and he pushed for the Cameron School of Business. In fact, I didn't mention the fact that we have an association of retired faculty here and for four years I was president of that. Then I gave it up because you can only have the job for four years by the constitution. Then Norm took it over and he is now the president of the Retired Faculty Association. Now I’m a director under him.

The past president serves as a director for the length of time that the new president serves. After Norm steps down, he becomes the director. Then I step down and I become just a member. The Retired Faculty Association is a very nice organization. We’ve got, I’d say about seventy members now. Most of them are in good standing, although it’s sort of a sad organization because some of our members are so old that they’re wheelchair bound or homebound, can’t get around.

We lose some of them just about every year. All in all, it’s a real fine organization. We meet, well, Norm and I meet, four times a year. The entire faculty group meets twice a year. We have a spring and a Christmas luncheon. We used to have it at the Wise House, the alumni house, until we became so large, we became so crowded that we couldn't even be served.

So now we meet at the Wagoner Suite, Madeline Wagoner Suite. That’s a very fine place because it’s so comfortable. The ARA, the food people are right there so food comes nice and steamy hot. It’s a good way to renew old acquaintances, people you haven’t seen for the entire year or six months. You get together again.

Lack: I guess it’s nice because a lot of retired faculty stay in the area probably. Some may leave.

Sherman: Yes, some like Jerry Shinn, he is the, I think, the ultimate professor. He can talk right off the top of his head on any subject and make sense. Jerry, I understand got divorced though, and he’s moved out of the area. It’s a shame because he was a real asset to the entire community. We could certainly use more professors like him, although I must say, that the faculty is extremely well qualified at UNCW. They do a good job of screening and hiring good people.

Now that salaries have gone up quite a bit from when I started. When I started as a doctorate in Business Administration, my salary was $16,000 a year. (laughter).

Lack: No wonder they needed to get retired people.

Sherman: Oh yes, that’s what we tried to do. We weren’t too successful. People would work their way up so my salary was a lot more than $16,000 when I finally retired, although I would probably still be teaching today if I didn't run into health problems because it’s so enjoyable. You build up a good rapport with students. You walk down the streets, “Dr. Sherman, I remember you." It does the old heart good.

Lack: So you said you did it as a challenge to yourself. Did you find that you liked it more than you thought you would?

Sherman: Oh yes, very much so. Now getting back to influential people, I know Bill Wagoner was, of course, he was the chancellor at that time. We knew Bill and his wife so closely, we had them over to the house and they had us over. Fran was married to a professor here and I had met her one time. I met her before she got her divorce and before I got my divorce. We met and we hit it off well.

But she knew the Wagoners better than I did because she came up in 1963 to work at Wilmington College. Of course, I came in 1976. I built this house and moved in, in 1977 and, of course, you can only do so much fishing and so much boating and you feel like what am I doing with all the education and all what’s stored up in here. I wanted to get busy and I did and I’m very happy.

Cahill was a very nice provost, also. He was a good old boy, but he got the job done and he was a good man.

Lack: It’s interesting how it’s changed. You know faculty members don’t know Dr. Leutze personally like you knew Dr. Wagoner. It’s a different story now.

Sherman: Well Dr. Leutze is a very fine individual, one who, I think, was needed for the big changeover that we have now. When I first got here, we had 4000 students, now we’ve got 10,500. The university is looking up. It has its specialties now. It has all these new beautiful buildings.

We need somebody of Chancellor Leutze’s abilities and stature to keep the ball rolling and he’s doing a super job. When you get to talk to him and know him, you can get close, he’s warm, he’s friendly, and interested. He never seems to be too busy to talk to a professor or a student. We need a chancellor like that, and I hope he stays.

Lack: He’s been here, I guess it’s been twelve years now, eleven maybe.

Sherman: It’s been a long time, yes. He came on board, when did he get here?

Lack: ’91 or so.

Sherman: See, that’s when I had my open-heart surgery, but he was already here because I taught summer school and the next day, I went to the hospital and had my quadruple bypass, after I turned in my grades. I had to get somebody to carry my bag for me up the stairs. I used the elevator rather than walk the stairs cause I was so short-winded. It’s all working out well, now. I’m still in the cardiac rehab program. I go every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I work out for about two hours. When I come home, I have a glass of wine and I’m finished.

Lack: Do you work on all the machines?

Sherman: Yes, the weight machines and the stress machines to get your heart pumping and keep it healthy. There’s 50 years of excellence here now.

Lack: Oh yes, over 50 years.

Sherman: You’ve got a lot of catching up to do, but I think you’re doing a good job. You’re going to become one of the most knowledgeable people around because you see what’s going on now and you’re interviewing all of these old-timers. So it’s going to all come together and you’ll be able to write a book.

Lack: I need to know it at my fingertips because people do ask. As you said before, when you came it was the business department and then it became Cameron School of Business and you guys had to move.

Sherman: We moved from the Bear Building to the Cameron School, which was quite a change because the Bear Building was way too small and the offices were very small. Everything was small and we had to share it with other departments. Here we had our own dedicated building, with all the modern capabilities, and it made quite a difference. We started expanding and getting bigger. I know I was on quite a few selection committees. I was chairman of many of the selection committees to bring new people on board, to bring them into Cameron School.

I remember Becky Porterfield, she was one of the ones that I recommended. Fran and I took her out. We would always go to one of the local restaurants and take the prospective employee out to dinner and recruit them and then make a recommendation to Norm and then also to the entire faculty for our school, whether we recommended them and why. If we didn't, why. Judy Siguaw came along with Becky. Judy left, but Becky’s here now. She has a big job now. I think she works for …

Lack: Is she an associate dean?

Sherman: I think she’s the associate dean, yeah. She’s moved up quite a bit.

Lack: That must be nice to see, the people that you recruited and recommended actually stay and do well. What were the students like when you were teaching?

Sherman: The students have been progressively better. When we were growing, our requirements were much lower than they are now. Actually you recall, I’m sure you do, that UNCW was a small regional…it was for students within this area. Now, of course, we’ve expanded to it, where we have international students. They have grown, the students, I think, have grown in knowledge and in capability.

I recall we had some very sad students. We had to end up giving F’s and getting them out. Now I don’t think that that happens too often now because the standards…I know one of the individuals who kept trying to raise the standards was Steve Harper. I don’t know if you’ve interviewed Steve yet. Steve is also one of the most capable professors we have here at UNCW. He always wanted a 2 point. A student would have to have a 2 point to get in. A lot of them didn't, they’d have a 1.8, 1.9.

We finally got up to 2 points and now I think it’s probably 2.5. The requirements are much higher and the caliber of the student, as a result, has improved to where you get a much more manageable student. I remember one student had…I used to use term papers a lot. I liked to test the metal of the student by having them submit a term paper on a specific subject. I gave a list of subjects and other instructions. One of the requirements for passing the course was to have this term paper in by a certain date.

They could write about any of those particular topics. This one who came from a fairly influential family in the area, a redneck, he submitted his paper and it was so bad that I had to give him an F. Every other word was misspelled. I gave him his F and said, “See me." So he knocked on the door with the paper. He was a redheaded kid and drove around in a red convertible. His face was red and he took his paper and slammed it on my desk and said, “What do you mean giving me an F."

I told him to look at his paper, that he got what he deserved. He said, “What are all those circles." I said, "You know what those circles are, they’re misspelled words. Look at all of them." He said, “What right do you have to fail me because you’ve got all those circles on there. You’re not a professor of English." He didn't last very long. Those days and those types of students I think are gone.

The caliber of students has been steadily improving and I think it’s a good thing because there are many more potential students that want to graduate from a university than spaces permit. So I think we do have to…people have to work hard at the beginning and improve themselves as time goes by in order to take advantage of higher education.

Lack: Can you say something about your education? Did you get a doctorate?

Sherman: Yes, I got my undergraduate degree at the University of Maryland in Business Administration. Then while I was on active duty, I went to night school. I was stationed in the Washington area and I went to the American University.

Lack: That’s where I went.

Sherman: Is that right?

Lack: Yes, for my undergraduate.

Sherman: I went for my Master’s. I got my Master’s at American University, a very fine university. Kogod Hall, MBA program. I graduated cum laude. I felt very happy about that because I was already in my thirties, my late thirties, when I got that. Then I was stationed in Thailand and I had a great assignment there. I was the director of development for ARPA, the Advanced Research Project Agency in Washington.

We had a project in Thailand to set up Thailand’s first military research and development center in Bangkok. It was a turnkey operation. I was the director of development. I started out as the assistant director and then the director was pulled back to Washington and I became the director. It was a very successful operation. I enjoyed the assignment so much. I had a very nice house and a driver. It was extremely interesting. I was invited to the palace. I was on the ambassador’s staff there.

I was on the Board of Directors for the R&R Center at Padia Beach that we had. It was just a very diversified good assignment. Everything was positive about it. I was ready to extend for another six years, but I got a telegram saying that I was to be promoted to full colonel and that I had to report back and get my doctorate at George Washington University by a certain time so that a planned merger between Picatinny Arsenal and Rock Island Arsenal, Edgewood Arsenal and two others, that I had to be the chief planner for all the research and development for all five of those agencies.

Picatinny was a giant organization, as it was. The problem was that the people that made the arms, when anything went wrong, they would say that would be at Rock Island. They would say, "It’s the people at Picatinny Arsenal, the ammunition people are the ones that screwed it up." It was vice versa. So we had to get them to work together under one head so I was the Chief of Planning for that. They liked the way I planned so they made me the director.

I became the first director of Research, Development, and Engineering for the Army Armament Command, which called for a brigadier general, but we only stayed together just a few years because there were a lot of politics involved, a lot of people wanted to separate again. They didn't want this one organization to be in charge. Eventually they did win.

I didn't have my doctorate because my dissertation had to be completed. I had to complete that on weekends and holidays so it took several years to finish it. Then I finally got it.

Lack: That’s quite an accomplishment while you’re working.

Sherman: It was a hard job, yes.

Lack: What field was it in?

Sherman: Research and development. Then I was already fifty-two and you’re supposed to retire when you’re fifty, unless you’re requested to stay. I was requested to stay on. My first two years, I was working for A.T. Carney as a management consultant. I went to my boss and I said, “I’m leaving. I’m giving you notice that I’m leaving in a couple of weeks. I’ll give you two weeks notice." I was in Washington, DC, at the time. I was living in Virginia. I built a home at Olde Point in Wilmington, North Carolina.

I told them I wanted to relax a little so I was going to teach at the university. John Egan, who was the CEO of this organization, which was government operations for A.T. Carney which was actually in Alexandria, Virginia, close to the rat race around there, he said, “No, you can’t quit. You’re being promoted.” I said I couldn't do it. I was going to settle down more. He said, “Well I’ll tell you what. You will still be on the payroll, only you’ll be paid when you work and we want you to come up during school vacations and summer vacations and work for us."

So I did that for a couple of Christmas vacations when we had time off at the university. I drove up. He said that all expenses would be paid for me and my wife. That included the hotel, food and everything else. He wanted me to work in the summer. So Fran and I, we did it for two summers and it got to be too much with the school and with the consulting so I just dribbled off on the consulting. I just refused to go and eventually they just dropped me.

That was quite an introduction to the university, being a management consultant as well as a professor at the same time. Well, it kept me all tied up. I had no free time really. Now things are a lot different. Now I’ve got between…we just got back from a wonderful trip, a river cruise, three days in Paris, seven days floating down the Seine River and the Rhone River, stopping at Burgundy, St. Paul Debers and Nice, ended up in Nice. Spent three days there on the Riviera. We’ve got very fond memories.

Lack: Wow, so that sounds nice. I guess a river cruise boat isn’t quite as big as some of those others.

Sherman: Oh, it’s not as big as an ocean going because the water is so calm. We had a balcony. We had a suite and a balcony. You’d sit out and have a glass of wine and see all the old castles and the vineyards go by. You went by so slow. You had to go by about twenty-five different locks on the river. We went seventy-five feet down on one of them. It was really an education and wonderful, very enjoyable. The weather was great. The food was even better.

Lack: It sounds like you’re finally having a retirement.

Sherman: That’s right. Now I want to work on a railroad trip across Canada from Calgary to Montreal. I understand that’s quite interesting. We’ve had our fill of ocean cruises, enough of those.

Lack: Do you still have your boat?

Sherman: I had two boats, but when we moved off the water, I sold them. No sense paying a fee to just have a boat sitting there. I go out with friends now. I don’t miss it that much. It’s like my riding lawnmower, which I just sold. I had to hire a lawn service so I just got rid of my riding mower and told my son-in-law to drive up and pick up the rest of our gardening equipment that we don’t use. Now we’re just a lady and gentleman.

Lack: It seems like you keep busy with other volunteer projects.

Sherman: I started off as vice-president of the Temple of Israel for three years and then I became president. I was president for the longest time in recent history, for five years. During that time, I had that open-heart surgery, but I’m still on the Board of Trustees and Membership Committee chairman for about a dozen years. I’ve been on the Board of Trustees for longer than that. In fact, we’ve got a meeting coming up.

I like to do voluntary things like that. I’ve been president of the Retired Officers Association. I served a tour as president there and enjoyed that very much too. We worked up a program where we would have people drive up to Camp LeJeune and pick up the prescriptions and drugs for the people in Wilmington who were incapacitated and couldn't go up to Camp LeJeune themselves to pick up their drugs. That’s still an ongoing program, and I was instrumental in drawing that up.

I’ve been making my contribution here and there and just enjoying life. I talk to nice people like you.

Lack: Well it’s been a real pleasure. Believe it or not, it’s been almost 60 minutes that we’ve been talking. Thank you very much. It was good talking to you. I’ve learned a lot.

Sherman: It’s been a pleasure.

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