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Interview with Nellie Sullivan, May 4, 2004 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Title:
Interview with Nellie Sullivan, May 4, 2004
Date:
May 4, 2004
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Sullivan, Nellie Interviewer: Mims, Luann Date of Interview: 6/9/2004 Series: SENC Health Services Length 60 minutes

Mims: Today is May 4 2004. I'm LuAnn Mims for the Randall Library Special Collections and we are doing our Health Services oral history today with Mrs. Nellie Hudson Sullivan who was a 1942 graduate of James Walker School of Nursing and she's going to share with us her experiences in this endeavor.

Mims: How are you doing today?

Sullivan: Oh, I feel good today. I'm thankful that I do feel so good.

Mims: Well good. I wanted to ask you a little about your personal background like what your father did and your mother did and how many brothers and sisters you had and where you're from.

Sullivan: My father was a farmer and we worked on the farm. I worked on the farm until I went in training.

Mims: Where was the farm located?

Sullivan: In Parkersburg, North Carolina and it belonged to a family of an intern that was interning at James Walker at the time that I came in training. In fact, this family helped me financially to get in training.

Mims: What kind of farming did your dad do?

Sullivan: We did… daddy did corn, tobacco, garden, most all that goes along with farming.

Mims: So as a child were you interested in nursing at all?

Sullivan: Oh yeah, I think I started real young about being a nurse.

Mims: And you found out about James Walker through this intern?

Sullivan: Well, I guess by Leroy being an intern… I don't know, I thought about Fayetteville too because I was nearer Fayetteville than I was Wilmington, but I guess Leroy being an intern at James Walker and the family was going to help me to financially get in training. I guess that made me decide to come to Wilmington.

Also the man that I married was already coming up to Parkersburg from Wilmington very often.

Mims: So after you graduated from high school, you were investigating various nursing schools. What did you do to have to get into James Walker School of Nursing, do you remember?

Sullivan: Well, I had to … of course give my grades from Roseboro High School. I remember I had to have my pastor write a note. I just can't remember everything I had to do besides my grades and my pastor's message.

Mims: And you understood that coming to James Walker meant you would have to live in the nurses' residence on site there.

Sullivan: Yes, I did.

Mims: How did your family feel about that?

Sullivan: Well, they just couldn't imagine me leaving home and at that time Wilmington seemed like a long ways from home. But they wanted me to do what I wanted to do.

Mims: And this is in 1939 you started training?

Sullivan: That's right.

Mims: Not a lot of women were pursuing careers at this time so ‘hats off’ that you were able to convince them that that's what you wanted to do. What are your earliest memories of coming to the school? Do you remember getting your room assignment, your uniform?

Sullivan: My earliest memory is getting on the train at Parkersburg and it was late in the afternoon and coming to Wilmington alone and I did spend that night with an aunt and her family and then the next day, I came into Wilmington and began to settle down (laughter).

Mims: These were private rooms that you were assigned to, right…at the nursing residence?

Sullivan: Yes, we had our private rooms.

Mims: Was that different from your home situation?

Sullivan: Yes, at home my two sisters and myself had a room.

Mims: So here you are living on your own in your own room?

Sullivan: That’s right.

Mims: And what about your early memories of your uniform. Do you remember what your first uniform was like?

Sullivan: Oh my goodness! My first uniform was, well they were striped, pale blue stripes and white starched, really stiff aprons and black hose and shoes. We didn't have a cap for six months and then as we progressed our black band on my cap was made wider. Like the first year it was not as wide and then as you progressed, your black band became larger

Mims: I understand from talking to the other nursing people that cap became a real source of pride. Can you tell me about your capping ceremony?

Sullivan: Oh yes, I’m telling you the cap really made you feel like that you were really dressed and in the right position, in the right mood…you were just really ready for real nursing. Not that the cap made you know anymore, but it just seemed to do something for you. Shall I tell a little incident that happened to me in Florida in recent years about my cap?

Mims: Sure.

Sullivan: Well, just about six years ago we moved to Florida for five years and I did part-time supervision in a nursing home and I was the oldest person working in this nursing home. Those elderly people just loved my white uniform and I did wear my cap and because I was the oldest person working there and because I did wear my complete uniform including that cap. They called me ‘Miss Nellie.’

It just made them feel so good to see someone in a complete uniform, cap and all. They knew that I was a nurse.

Mims: I agree. Today you go into a hospital and it's hard to pick out who the nurses are. Going back to your school situation, I understand that your time spent there that you had to do rotations through the different areas of the hospital. Can you pick out an area that you thought you were the best at or you liked the most?

Sullivan: Well, I remember more distinctly Ward C, which was a huge women's ward. And I remember that I was on night duty and it seemed like it was just impossible to do everything that should be done by 7:00 in the morning. But somehow or another I would get it done.

I also remember that we had to go to class even though you were on night duty. You would get off and get a little bit of sleep, but I think about 11 or 1, early in the day, you would have to get up, even if you were on night duty and go to class because we had our teaching in the nursing home, the doctors and our instructors taught us right in the nursing home.

Mims: In the lower level?

Sullivan: I'm sure it was because it couldn't have been upstairs in the rooms. Yes it was. I just can't remember exactly where our classroom was. I'm not sure if it was in the basement or not.

Mims: When you attended classes, you had to be in uniform as well, right?

Sullivan: I think we did. I'm really not sure, but I think we did have to dress in our uniform to go to class.

Mims: Got a lot of wear out of those uniforms.

Sullivan: That's right.

Mims: What area do you think you liked least in the rotations?

Sullivan: I can't think of really liking any one the least, but I think that I got the least experience in OB. I did like the nursery. I enjoyed that so much, but I still wouldn't feel very confident having to do a delivery because I just didn't, it seems like I just got the very specific training in OB. So I'm not very much up on delivery.

Mims: Now when you talk about training, they were training you for total patient care so can you describe what you would have to do for patients when you were a student nurse?

Sullivan: Total patient care would include bathing them and seeing that all their daily little chores were done, feeding them…

Mims: You had to change their bed sheets too, right?

Sullivan: Oh yes, bathing and changing their linens and do their hair and teeth and be sure that they were really fixed. A lot of them I remember were, they had spiritual needs and you would certainly do everything in that way that you could to help people.

And you could always make them feel good by keeping their families informed as much we were allowed to, just a lot of little thoughtful things you could do that always helped them so much.

Mims: The physical structure of James Walker Hospital like I said has been torn down so we don't have a good visual record other than through pictures.

Sullivan: You do have a picture, don't you?

Mims: Right, what do you remember about the way the building looked?

Sullivan: Oh, I remember going in the front steps and the living room off to the left and running up those steps to our floor, to our rooms. That it faced the hospital, they were real close together.

Mims: One of the things that's noted is the separation of the races. That they had a separate building for the colored.

Sullivan: Oh yes, the colored ward was separate from the rest of the hospital and I do remember working in the colored ward and the dispensary was in the colored ward too. I remember working in the dispensary making the q-tips and packing the cotton balls and all the things that we used to have to do that is done by machinery now.

It was very interesting and I remember we had a lot of sick people in the colored ward and we had a very nice supervisor. Her last name was Henry.

Mims: For the colored ward or just in general?

Sullivan: She was for the colored ward.

Mims: I was reading something the other day saying that a while back, and I don't remember whether you would remember this, that when a doctor came on the floor, there was like a chiming sound or something. How would you know when a doctor was coming to your particular area?

Sullivan: I didn't know anything about any warning or sound of a doctor coming on the floor. I just know when the doctors did come on the floor, at that time '39 to ‘42; we would always stand up when they came to the floor. Just stand and recognize them.

Mims: Do you remember some of the doctors that you worked with?

Sullivan: Oh yeah, my, Dr. Kuntz, Dr. Bear, Dr. Ficklen, Dr. Marshburn, Dr. Bert Williams, Horace Moore, is that enough?

Mims: I heard Dr. Ficklen's name. What was his specialty?

Sullivan: OB - GYN with Dr. Bear.

Mims: Dr. Marshburn, what was he?

Sullivan: Dr. Marshburn, medical.

Mims: I've heard some of the names, but I'm not picking them up with what their specialty is yet. Any some of the really older doctors, like Dr. Fales, was he practicing…

Sullivan: Oh Dr. Fales, yes, he was one of the older ones.

Mims: He's noted for telling stories about the past. Did he share stories with student nurses about a long time ago in Wilmington medicine?

Sullivan: Yes, he told us about… well, his patients would pay him with vegetables. They would bring vegetables or chickens, meat or anything from the country.

Mims: Can’t do that today.

Sullivan: That's right. Wouldn't think of it.

Mims: I've also been told that Dr. Sidbury was at James Walker some. Did you ever have a chance to meet him?

Sullivan: Yes, I did and I took care of one or two children down at the Babies Hospital. That is when I first, it was after our children were born and after work, the first thing I did was private duty for just a little while and one or two times, I did go down to Babies Hospital and take care of the children.

Mims: Now the time that you were in training, the United States was experiencing the interjection of world war. Can you give me a little bit of idea about how that affected you?

Sullivan: Well, it affected me in that we had gotten secretly married in August.

Mims: '41 or '40?

Sullivan: In August of '41. This, we were in the delivery room delivering a baby. Dr. Moore, I think his first name was Houston, have you heard that name?

Mims: Yes I have.

Sullivan: And someone came in and told us that Pearl Harbor had been attacked and of course I guess my first thought was, “Well, my husband will be going to war.” He didn't have to go. He was responsible for his parents at that time and also married. Anyway he didn't have to go in service.

Mims: How did you meet him?

Sullivan: Oh my goodness, I met him by my aunt and her family that lived in Wilmington had a home up in Parkersburg and they went very often and my cousin that lived here wanted him, Woodrow, to come up to Parkersburg and meet me. So one afternoon when I was up at the Regis where I stayed, the farm that we lived on where I stayed with them a lot, and just helped them do little things. They always took me to Fayetteville on Saturday and did something real nice for me.

Anyway my aunt and them brought Woodrow to our house, which was just down the railroad track from the home I was at. So they sent for me to come home and there was Woodrow. So that's the way we met.

Mims: And then when you came down to Wilmington, he was living down here already.

Sullivan: Yes, he lived in Wilmington. He came up to Parkersburg at least a couple of years, maybe a year or so. It was a year in between my finishing high school and my coming in training and he came up to Parkersburg very frequently, at least every month.

Mims: So you were kind of restricted living at the residence facility and being able to have a relationship with him. You had to sign out, right?

Sullivan: Yes.

Mims: And he couldn't come but in the lower floor?

Sullivan: Oh yes, he could come into our living room. We could visit in our living room.

Mims: So what, other than the advent of the war… how did this secret marriage take place? Did you just decide that was the way it needed to go?

Sullivan: Yes, I guess so. I mean you know, we did.

Mims: Well, there were great consequences if you'd been caught, right?

Sullivan: Oh yes.

Mims: Another friend of yours had secretly been married as well.

Sullivan: Yes, she was married; I think they were married about a month before we were.

Mims: Something happened and it was found out about her…

Sullivan: Yes, they just decided that she would resign for the time being.

Mims: Did she eventually go back and complete her studies?

Sullivan: After they had been married a few years and they had two children, when the children were old enough to help to take care of themselves with the help of their grandparents and their dad, she went back to school and finished and became an RN and worked in, enjoyed it and was one of the best nurses that we have ever known. And she has passed away now.

Mims: That's a shame. But you really stuck it out despite the stress of having a secret marriage and all of your studies that you had to do and the rotation and you stayed and completed the program, what do you think it was that made you stay in this program and not just say, I could go and be a wife to my husband?

Sullivan: Well, I wanted to be a nurse really bad and we really saw each other right much and I just managed pretty good. In fact I really did try real hard and my last part of my training was in the Bear Building. Have you heard of that, which was the isolation unit? I'm not sure how many months we spent there, but it was a pretty good while and I think most of the time that I was in the Bear Building, the isolation unit, that we only had never more than two or three patients and I got to study for state board.

It was the last of my training and I got to study so much in there and I did make I think, it was second highest on my state board of any of us which was surprising to me, but I was happy.

Mims: Well, by the time you graduated, we were included in World War II at that time, did you give any thought of joining…

Sullivan: No, then I was ready to just be a wife, but I did continue to work until time for our first child to be born.

Mims: After graduation, did you go back and work at James Walker?

Sullivan: I did.

Mims: In what department?

Sullivan: First in the emergency room and I remember assisting with Miss Britt, who was our director at that time in the drug room. Of course I didn't fill the drugs, but there was something in there that I remember. I did help her in the drug room.

Mims: Was it different functioning as a registered nurse versus a student nurse in the same facility?

Sullivan: Oh yes it was. I have to tell you something real funny. When I was working in the emergency room and it was when I first got out of training, Dr. Fales' wife came in and her fingers she had cut them or they had gotten cut while she was mixing a cake. So we got her hand taken care of and all that and I said to Dr. Fales, I said, "Should she have tetanus?" (Laughter) Dr. Fales said, "Well you know I don't believe so." I never will forget that.

If I had been experienced I would have known that she didn't need tetanus, I think I would have rather.

Mims: I understand he had a very good nature about him.

Sullivan: That's right. He said it real good, "I don't believe so."

Mims: Well, what was there to do in Wilmington during this period of time? What did you do for social recreation?

Sullivan: Well, most of the time that I had time off, my husband, he was my friend all the time and until we got married, most of the time he had something for us to do like just going places, out to eat and seeing his family. I didn't care very much about going to the beach, neither did he? So we didn't go to the beach a lot.

We would go out to my parents up to Parkersburg pretty often. Seemed like we didn't have…much of what we did was riding around and visiting families. He just liked for us to go places and talk to people.

Mims: I understand wartime Wilmington was quite a bustling place. Do you remember a lot of activity in Wilmington during that time?

Sullivan: A lot of activity, like the soldiers, yes, they had right much activities. I think the name of the place where their social activity …

Mims: The USO?

Sullivan: Yeah, they had a lot of activities, but I was never a part of that, but I know they did.

Mims: I know there was like Camp Davis near here and other facilities. Did any of them come and use the James Walker Hospital for like military patients?

Sullivan: Yes, I know they did, but I don't remember being a nurse nursing any one particular patient that might have come in.

Mims: I had somebody else mention that sometimes the soldiers would come from like the airport down to James Walker to donate blood.

Sullivan: Yes, I remember hearing that, but I never helped with getting blood or the procedure of giving blood.

Mims: So how long had you worked at Walker after you graduated?

Sullivan: After I graduated…let’s see well for the beginning of my working, I only worked until May of '43 because our daughter was born in June of '43.

Mims: Wow, so you worked while you were pregnant.

Sullivan: I did and after Betty was born in '43, we had another child in '45 and our youngest one in '47 and then it was about '50, 1950 before I returned to work

Mims: What did you do then?

Sullivan: My first position after returning to work after the children were born was I did supervision in the little Bullocks Hospital. Do you know it?

Mims: I don't know that much about that. What was that hospital like?

Sullivan: Well it was medical and surgical and Dr. Mebane, Dr. Sinclair, Dr. Pace and several other doctors practiced later, but I worked at, I was a room supervisor at Bullocks Hospital for three or four years. Then I resigned and went to, I think I went on the registry and did private duty for a few years and after doing private duty for a year, I went on the staff at James Walker and did night duty for a few years.

Then after that I became head nurse on South Wing 3 and stayed there until we moved to New Hanover in 1967. In 1967, we moved over to New Hanover and I was asked to do staff nursing on OB/GYN and I worked, I don't even know if it was a year, but I decided that I wanted to resign and do private duty again, which I did.

I did private duty for a while and then I did about three years of first aid in Care First Aid over at Hercafina for Daniels Construction Company.

Mims: How long did you do that?

Sullivan: I reckon it was a couple of years for Daniels Construction.

Mims: And then eventually you moved to Florida, right?

Sullivan: No, let's see Daniels Construction… and then I guess I did private duty again until we moved to Florida for five years

Mims: Well you certainly did a lot of stuff with your nursing degree.

Sullivan: Well, I did have a variety then, I really did. After we moved to Florida, I haven't already told you what I did in Florida on record.

Mims: You said you worked in a nursing home?

Sullivan: Yes at Orlando Health Care doing supervision in a nursing home. Orlando Health Care.

Mims: How did you come back to Wilmington?

Sullivan: Well, we really thought we had moved to Florida to stay, but it's just funny. We were thinking about our obituaries and I asked my husband about planning it. Anyway a cousin of mine helped me plan our funeral once when we were home. But my husband kept saying there's no need in you doing that because we will die in Wilmington. That's what he would always say. And you know he said, “We're going to die in Wilmington,” even though we thought we were going to be there all the time.

Mims: So you came back to Wilmington.

Sullivan: Anyway we stayed there for almost five years and the children decided that they wanted to sell their estate and go to a place of four seasons and just change their business. So we all decided to come back to Wilmington.

Mims: And that's how you ended up here again?

Sullivan: That's how I got back to Wilmington.

Mims: Let me go back and ask you a couple of questions. Like I said I don't know that much about Bullocks Hospital or the doctors Pace, Mebane and Sinclair. They seem to have been the forerunners there. What were they like?

Sullivan: Well Dr. Mebane was a specialist in delivery, OB but he was a general, I guess that’s the way you would say that, and wonderful. A member of the First Presbyterian Church in Winter Park, very active in that. Dr. Sinclair is still living and he was a surgeon and he has also had a family, nice family, three boys and Dr. Pace was a medical doctor. There's several others, but just know I just can't remember them all. They were basically the leaders or directors.

Mims: When you were there, it was pretty close to the time that they started purchasing the property that eventually became Cape Fear Hospital. Do you remember any of that situation, the move from Bullocks to Cape Fear? Were you gone by then?

Sullivan: Well we didn't move from Bullocks to Cape Fear. There was some other kind of building that was being used as a…

Mims: The sanitarium, the TB thing?

Sullivan: I've just forgotten what the process in between Bullocks and building Cape Fear, but my friend that I spoke of earlier, worked at Bullocks also before she went back to finish her training to become an RN and she was with Bullocks and all of the processing through Cape Fear. She was in charge OB at Cape Fear. Her last position was Director of Nursing at Brunswick Cove.

Mims: Do you remember any African-American patients at Bullocks Hospital?

Sullivan: At Bullock's Hospital … I know we did, but right now I can't quite picture, but …

Mims: I didn't know whether they maintained a separate ward. They were integrated.

Sullivan: That is one question that I am not very, very positive of. But there would have been no problem out at Bulluck’s.

Mims: Well, like at James Walker they had the separate area so I didn't know whether it was the same at Bullocks.

Sullivan: I just don't remember the details about that, sorry.

Mims: Then were you part of the process to move, if you were working at Walker about the time that they built New Hanover, were you part of that moving day process?

Sullivan: I certainly was.

Mims: What was that like? It must have been incredible.

Sullivan: Well, it was but it seemed like a real smooth transformation.

Mims: What floor were you on in James Walker at that time?

Sullivan: South Wing 3, which was female.

Mims: And so when your patients moved, did you stay with them and find a place at New Hanover that was doing the same thing or was it different.

Sullivan: Well, you know that the census was gotten as low as it could be to have taken care of everyone that needed it. But we had plenty of help and it just went real smooth.

Mims: What floor were you working on at New Hanover when it opened?

Sullivan: Fourth floor.

Mims: Was that women's?

Sullivan: Yes.

Mims: So you were staying with about the same doctors?

Sullivan: Well, at New Hanover it was more OB/GYN because I did not get the same position at New Hanover that I had at James Walker. So it was a different …different doctors.

Mims: What was the feeling like? I mean did they just start talking about we're going to build a new hospital. As a nurse how did you feel about a new facility being built in town?

Sullivan: Well, the feeling was good because we needed more space and I guess we just felt like it would be nice to have a new larger hospital.

Mims: Were the facilities at James Walker becoming like outdated do you think?

Sullivan: Well, I guess you would say they were becoming outdated, but as far as I know everything was… everyone was being taken care well and correctly. Nothing was bad. It was I think just mostly a need for a new larger hospital.

Mims: Was there ever any thought about that the nursing school would stop?

Sullivan: Oh yeah, it stopped before we moved from James Walker. It seemed like it was two or three years.

Mims: '66 is the last graduating class.

Sullivan: Okay, that's right. The nursing school stopped a year before we moved.

Mims: As an alumni how did you feel about that James Walker School of Nursing would end?

Sullivan: Well, we thought we were doing something good and the college I remember was always so thoughtful in talking about us and supplying us for a place to meet and to make us feel really good honoring James Walker. I guess that takes care of what I want to say because they have always treated us as an alumni.

Mims: That sounds fair. When you went to New Hanover Hospital it was totally integrated at that time. There was no longer a colored ward.

Sullivan: That's right.

Mims: Did you see any situations where that became controversial at all?

Sullivan: I really didn't. I really didn't. I think we all worked together really well. You couldn’t afford to and do your work well.

Mims: Also around that time there were other forms of nursing that were coming into play with the LPN's being certified and you had the nursing assistants. Was the setting a little bit different at New Hanover with having all these different people on the floor with you or had it been the same at James Walker?

Sullivan: Well, it wasn't too much of a change, but everyone had their duties outlined for them and they knew what they were supposed to do. With the guidance of their superiors, everyone did well.

Mims: It was a little bit different for you. Were you still doing total patient care where you were having to change sheets and do baths?

Sullivan: Well no, not very often because we had so much of the nurse duties to do until we hardly found time for helping with the daily activities. But we would have if need be.

Mims: It's just interesting that you were involved with almost two moves of two different hospitals.

Sullivan: I've been involved with three, four different ones, Bullocks. Well I worked at Cape Fear some too but I didn't put that in. I was relief for the emergency room sometimes. When I was doing private duty, they would want me to relieve them.

Mims: How about Community Hospital, did you have any contact with them?

Sullivan: No, I never even visited Community Hospital. I know one thing; we had some nice nurses from Community Hospital.

Mims: And you're very active in the James Walker Alumni Association.

Sullivan: I have always been active and I've always been an ANA member and been active in our American Nursing Association until I moved to Florida. I haven't reactivated. When I came back from Florida I did not reactivate my North Carolina license. I haven't worked since then.

Mims: Gosh, with all the diversity you had in your career, somebody coming new into the field, what kind of advice would you offer them to have the longevity that you have in this field?

Sullivan: I would advise them to want to be a nurse, somebody that really cares for people and that is willing to do anything because at some time there is nothing that you might not be needed to do. In other words, to be a good nurse, you have got to want to do patient care as well as the other activities that go along and is pertaining to nursing.

Mims: Well the field of nursing has so many expanded roles now, if you had it to do over again, would you choose to go into some type of specific nursing?

Sullivan: Well, I'll tell you the truth, I think I am satisfied with the nursing career that I went through. I don't know that I did not do some of everything, most everything, up and through supervision. I did no administration. As far as patient care, I know that I got a chance at all of it.

Mims: It seems like you enjoyed it too.

Sullivan: I did.

Mims: And you saw a lot of transitions during this period of time. Can you think what one of the biggest transitions you've seen over the years as far as nursing responsibilities go? Like in the idea that maybe more nurses take initiative steps now without the doctor saying to do this. It seems like they're more on the leading edge than a doctor is now. With going from James Walker and you were doing your stuff there and then over to New Hanover, did you notice a change in what your responsibilities were like? Or did they change at all?

Sullivan: Well, I think the more you care about your nursing career, the more you can see that you can inject to help people to know what's going on and what they should be doing.

Mims: Well, like the relationship between doctor and nurse has been a little bit more defined than what it was before. Like you said when the doctors came to the floor, everybody stood up and recognized them. You don't see that in today's setting. And the nurses' caps are not in today's setting unless it's really an individual trying to maintain that tradition. So how do you feel about that change? The looseness about it.

Sullivan: Well, I know the cap doesn't make the knowledge, but I still and I guess it's because I'm one of the older groups, but I still would like to see nurses wear uniforms.

Mims: What do you feel about the interjection of males into the field of nursing now?

Sullivan: Well, you know I think it's all right. I think it might be good. I also think there are times when a male nurse would be more relaxed and probably be able to do their job better in some aspects pertaining to males than a female.

Mims: Did you ever have the opportunity to work with a male RN?

Sullivan: Oh yes, I did, especially in Florida. I worked with staff male nurses in Florida more than in North Carolina.

Mims: So it's opening up to more and more people.

Sullivan: Well, it just happened that in Orlando Health Care we had several, some on each shift, male RN's.

Mims: Now when you were back at James Walker, they had orderlies, male orderlies there, but the capacity is different as an RN. What do you see as the biggest difference?

Sullivan: Well, I think at James Walker, the orderlies, they took care of the males for their bathroom needs and to me there were a few things that orderlies did for the people that has stood with me and that I remember the orderlies as being so useful and really made the patients feel comfortable.

Mims: Do you remember the orderlies being black or white at James Walker?

Sullivan: I think most of our orderlies at James Walker were black.

Mims: Well, we certainly have talked a lot today. Is there anything you can think of that maybe we haven't touched up that you'd like to bring forth now?

Sullivan: I think I've told you everything, don't you (laughter).

Mims: Well it's been great talking to you today and I certainly appreciate your time for this project.

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