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Interview with Paz Bartolome, September 13, 2002 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Title:
Interview with Paz Bartolome, September 13, 2002
Date:
September 13, 2002
Description:
Dr. Paz Bartolome discusses her career as a professor of education at UNC-Wilmington. Dr. Bartolome came to UNCW in 1970 and is in her last year of "phased retirement." She was born in the Philippines and arrived in the United States in 1973. She discusses teaching college students in her specialty areas of language arts education and early childhood education. For five years in the early 1970s, Dr. Bartolome directed the Child Study Center at UNCW, and for 19 years she owned the Little Red Schoolhouse, a daycare and preschool center in Wilmington.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Bartolome, Paz Interviewer: Lack, Adina Date of Interview: 9/13/2002 Series: Voices of UNCW Length: 53 minutes

Lack: Good afternoon. My name is Adina Lack. I’m the archivist and special collections librarian here at Randall Library at UNCW. We’re in the conference room of Randall Library and I’m pleased to introduce Paz Bartolome who is here with us to share her story about her affiliation with UNCW, particularly the School of Education.

Dr. Bartolome, where were you born and where did you grow up?

Bartolome: I grew up in the Philippines and I came to the United States in 1963 as a Fulbright scholar. I went to Miami University in Oxford, Ohio and I didn't know how lucky I was until I met other people who tried to go to Miami University of Oxford, Ohio, but they didn't get in and instead went to Bowling Green.

Then my chair, Dr. Hulon, asked me how did you choose Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. I said I looked at the back of the dictionary and went through all the universities that were over 50 years old for education. One of them is Miami University of Oxford, Ohio and I found out it was one of the [inaudible] university much older than Ohio State University so that’s where I got my Master’s degree. Then the [inaudible] dean of Miami University helped me get to Ohio State for my Ph.D.

Lack: And there did you receive a Ph.D. in Education?

Bartolome: Yes, in education with a minor in administration.

Lack: Who did you say your chair was at Miami University?

Bartolome: Josh Steckman. He was a very nice man, one of the service men that used the GI Bill to go to school so he was very nice to me.

Lack: Well how did you find Ohio after the Philippines? How did you like it?

Bartolome: Oh, I liked it very much. Miami University of Oxford, Ohio is a high class university. The dining room was first class. The dormitories, they changed our bed sheets and they cleaned our rooms twice a week. I woke up with the bell ringing and sometimes I woke up and wondered what did I do so well that I deserved something like this (laughter).

Lack: That made the winters more tolerable I suppose.

Bartolome: Well, it was cold, but it was nice. Ohio feels like a second home to me now. I have friends there.

Lack: What was your Ph.D. experience like?

Bartolome: Oh, it was nice. I was a graduate assistant. In fact, I learned more from my fellow graduate students than from the classroom sometimes. Maybe I learned the American way being with my classmates and being in the dormitory. Now I find international students living among themselves. Even the universities arrange for international students to live among themselves.

I do not agree with this and I tell my fellow students even then that if they did not want to learn new things and just stay together, why did they even get out. I’m sorry to say that even universities put international students together. What education are they getting if they’re altogether and not with fellow Americans?

Lack: So it sounds like you lived with Americans.

Bartolome: Yes, I lived with Americans in the dormitory, but we were all together, Americans, Chinese, and that was very, very, to me, it was a good learning experience. That’s where I learned how to get along with other people, and how to defend myself when they were stepping on my toes.

Lack: I’m sure you can do that. What brought you to Wilmington? Did you come to Wilmington from Columbus?

Bartolome: No, when I was finishing my dissertation, I got the call from Canada asking me if I wanted to be a professor. I didn't even ask how much the salary was. All I asked was if they could let me finish my dissertation and they said yes. So I went there and that’s where I wrote my dissertation and finished my degree there as an out of state student. They did give me a term every year for two years to come to Ohio State and finish my dissertation so that’s where I was.

Then after two years, I finished my degree, I applied here in the United States and I was accepted at Oakland University in Michigan. I raised my hand and took the oath and all that. I was getting scared. It was almost June, July and August, I was teaching in Canada and I called the university and I said, “Can you guarantee me that I can come into the United States to teach because I am a citizen of the Philippines and in Canada”. And they said no.

In the meantime, I had resigned from Saskatchewan. Fortunately the Dalhousie University hired me also. That’s in Nova Scotia and it’s a good place. So I was in Nova Scotia teaching as an associate professor. We would be supervising student teachers in those places and I felt so fortunate. I said, look, here I am doing this. But at one time I went to a conference in California, San Francisco. It was so nice. Then I went back to Nova Scotia and it was snowing, you know, 40 degrees below 0. So I called Ohio State again and had them open my file and UNCW called me and asked if I would like to come.

I asked what they had to offer. They asked me to come and visit. The chairman then was Dr. Hulon. He was also a veteran and he had been in the Philippines so we had a good rapport, although we didn't agree with each other all the time. One funny incident was when I came here, it was not integrated. The schools were still segregated and I think even the community was segregated.

So he was taking me around town, downtown, he showed me downtown. Then he got lost. He got into the black section and I noticed the roads were not paved and he said, “I didn't mean for you to see this.” I said why not, this is part of it. So we finally were able to get out of that area and he took me to the beach. They did offer me the job and I said do you know what to do with me because of my previous experience?

Lack: With the immigration.

Bartolome: Yes, do you know what to do with me. I’m a citizen of the Philippines, an immigrant in Canada, do you know what to do with me and they said yes. The first year I would be on a visa. After a year, you will be an immigrant. That’s the difference I think between then and now. When they hire people from other countries, I don’t think they help them get their papers. But then they knew what to do and I didn't have to do anything for my papers. So it was nice. The dean then was Dr. Ramos.

Lack: So Dr. Hulon was the one that showed you...he was the chairman.

Bartolome: He was the chairman and Dr. Ramos was the dean and Dr. Randall I think was still the president of the university.

Lack: What year did you come here?

Bartolome: 1970. I think there were only three buildings at the time. When I came I was asking for the catalog and they told me it wasn’t finished yet, but later on I found out the reason why they wouldn’t show me the catalog because they didn't have anything at the time. They had just become a university.

Lack: Right, it became a university in ’69. It had been a college.

Bartolome: In some ways, I feel I’m lucky because I came at the right time.

Lack: When did you retire?

Bartolome: I retired 2001. I’m still going to teach, I’m phasing now.

Lack: So you’re teaching part time?

Bartolome: I’m teaching, my last semester will be 2003.

Lack: What were you hired to teach? What was your specialty?

Bartolome: Well, actually my specialty is in language arts, curriculum really. Curriculum in language arts and early childhood, but when I first came I taught everything because there were only four of us – Dr. Hulon, Dr. Doss, Mrs. Stike and myself. Dr. Bachman came a year or two later I think. So I taught everything from reading to science to social studies to student teaching. But it was fun because you had more independence in planning the program.

Lack: How many classes a semester did you teach?

Bartolome: Well we taught everything and I remember having 27 student teachers. We hired somebody to help us supervise the student teachers. I know Jim Harkin was one and the wife of the former dean, what’s her name?

Lack: Oh Kaylor.

Bartolome: Right, Mrs. Kaylor supervised student teachers and that’s all. We taught everything. I think we worked hard.

Lack: How many majors were there? Not exact numbers, but was it a big department for the size of the school at the time?

Bartolome: At the time it was growing. Like I had 27 student teachers so student teachers alone plus the ones that were taking the other courses. It was growing so we needed to add more. That’s why Harkin came. Dr. Hulon also, I think I like him. He’s an honest person. He said what he thought and so therefore when you are like that, sometimes people don’t like you very much. They thought that he didn't get along with the school board and that was the problem in the School of Education.

He even ran for being a school board member. But I think I liked him. You knew where you stood. You may disagree, but I don’t think he counted that against you. We disagreed a lot, but I like his honesty but I don’t think people appreciated it very much. At the same time, we were growing so they decided to change him and then they hired Dr. Harkin as a chair first.

Now I thought our purpose was good at the time. Since we knew that a new chair was going to be hired, we did not hire additional people until the new chair came. We thought that he should have a role. He should not choose, but we still felt that the faculty committee had an input in it. Maybe that’s not too good, but I think it’s alright.

Lack: That’s how it happened.

Bartolome: That’s how it happened. That’s why Dr. Hayes came and a lot of people came because we needed them.

Lack: And that was under Dr. Harkin. So he came in the 70’s also.

Bartolome: Maybe in 1975 or 1974. After four years of my coming, he came. We had for four years Dr. Doss, Dr. Bachner, Mrs. Stike, myself and Dr. Hulon. We were growing. That’s why we thought we needed to change.

Lack: From what I understand, you were very involved with teacher education, the baccalaureate program, the bachelor’s program. Can you explain to me your thoughts on that. I guess in other universities, there’s a trend towards master’s level, like getting a master’s in teaching after a four year degree. What are the advantages of this degree?

Bartolome: There has been research in this and it’s not conclusive. Sometimes when I look at our students, they’re so young. They’re so inexperienced. They’ll be facing these young people, especially now they seem to me to look younger and younger. Now I’ve told my students, I teach children’s literature and literacy development. Sometimes I find their vocabularies are so limited.

Their knowledge about literature is so limited and we’re supposed to teach them also methodology. Sometimes I’ve told them they might know methodology, but if you don’t know your discipline, if you don’t know what you’re supposed to teach, what good would methodology be. I told them my experience about watching a student teacher teased because of _______. The student teacher used the best instruction of process, but the concept was wrong.

She had a game where a child was supposed to be in the center, it’s supposed to be the sun, and when she said day, the children came closer and when it’s night, they went away. Then she had a box and she had a flashlight and that was supposed to be the sun and when it moved toward the box, it was supposed to be day and now it’s night. But they said what would happen to the earth. If you’re running away from the sun, it would be freezing. She said oh my goodness, I did something wrong, what will I do. I said don’t worry, forget about it for a week or two, and then teach it again the right way.

Lack: They don’t have to run away from it, they still have to be aware that the sun is still there.

Bartolome: Yes, it was wrong, but there are visual aids, it’s more effective, you must have knowledge of the discipline. I found out that are students do not have any patience in learning the details about language. I said that’s what you’re supposed to teach.

Lack: The grammar you mean?

Bartolome: The grammar, the elements of language, semantics.

Lack: You’ve been teaching a long time. What were the students like when you got here as compared to now?

Bartolome: I think our students then, that’s why we were able to do a lot more with less, is that they were more mature. They knew why they were there. You could give them tons of work and they wouldn’t complain. You give them work now and jeez, they complain a lot. They whine a lot. Our students in the 70’s, I still see them. They’re retired already and they’ll say, “Dr. B., I’m retired” (laughter), but they did a lot of work. And when they’re teaching now and they see some of the students now and they won’t accept their responsibilities, they’re upset.

Lack: Yes, the SAT scores are going up. Perhaps they don’t work as hard. They have ability, but they don’t work as hard.

Bartolome: They have the ability. This is teaching, you have to read, you have to write, you have to speak up. If you don’t like what you’re doing here, take something else. Although there are some that are really good, but the majority…or maybe I’m saying this because I’m already yesterday (laughter). Maybe this is one way of accepting the fact that I’m no longer teaching. I don’t know.

I can remember the time where I could give more projects and assignments and finish them, and now I can’t. I can’t do that. I have to reduce their activities.

Lack: Do you think fewer people are going into education because it seems difficult? Well there’s a teacher shortage.

Bartolome: Well that’s another thing. We do not treat teachers with respect, like niggardly, that word. The teacher was asked to write a letter of apology and attend sensitivity training. I think the administrators should be asked to write letters of apology and attend sensitivity training. How can you accept bright _____ people to be in teaching. They call the teachers professional, but they are not treating them professionally. Honestly that’s what my fight with Dr. Leutze was about because of this countdown.

Everything is administration. We have to submit this to the chair, the chair has to submit it to the dean, the dean --- maybe that’s what they call quality. I don’t call it quality. I call it a lot of paperwork.

Lack: Were you chair at any point?

Bartolome: No, I wasn’t a chair. When they asked someone to come and sit in front of their chair and talk about their teaching and student evaluations. I tell my students if I follow the curve, 15% say I’m excellent, 15% say I’m the poorest professor they had and 70% say I’m so-so. That’s fine with me.

Then what happens is the chair likes you, then the chair will overlook the negative comments of students. If the chair doesn’t like you, she will pick up five of those negatives and put it on top of your table. How would you feel? I feel that professors are not being treated professionally either if you have to do that.

Lack: Do you think that’s typical in the United States? Do you see that problem in other countries, that teachers are treated with more respect in other countries perhaps?

Bartolome: I think in other countries before, I’m not sure now, it seems like I was talking with a professor from Taiwan only a week ago and she said it’s like that there too.

Lack: What was it like when you got here? You were probably one of the few international professors?

Bartolome: We were, somebody talked about us being exotic or something like that. When we went to the grocery store, they looked at us. Actually when I came, I had a hard time finding an apartment. I called the Malibu Apartment and they told me yes, there was a vacancy. When my sister came, they said no more.

Then a few years, when GE was going to transfer their nuclear unit here, many people from San Jose didn't want to come. So they asked me to go there and I assured the people that it was okay now (laughter). You can find many things in the grocery store. They don’t look at you anymore. They don’t stare at you anymore. It has changed a lot.

Lack: Wilmington has changed.

Bartolome: Wilmington has changed a lot. The schools in terms of integration has changed a lot. Maybe some attitudes have not, but I remember when I came the schools were integrated and all our student teachers went to night school. One time I took my student teachers, I don’t know what school it was now, but they had not worked with black students. I encouraged them to do _______ and all those ______ to teach children and in five seconds all of their work had been broken and they were crying after that.

I have seen a lot of changes. Even when it was first integrated and I visited schools, the black children were at the back or on the side and I asked why. They said because there were discipline problems. I said if there were discipline problems, they should be in front. I don’t think that happens now so we have come a long way when it comes to that.

Now I don’t know at UNCW because you seldom see black and white students mingling together. You still see blacks eating together and white students eating together.

Lack: Sitting together in class?

Bartolome: No outside. But in my classes, there were very few.

Lack: Few black students.

Bartolome: I had more in previous years. Now I’d be lucky to have one or two. There are times when I don’t have anybody. In children’s literature, that’s very hard because you do not see or hear the perspective of other groups you see.

Lack: That’s interesting.

Bartolome: We have less black students now than before I think.

Lack: At UNCW.

Bartolome: Well even in my classes.

Lack: In the School of Education maybe, they’re choosing other fields.

Bartolome: Because before I would have four or five or six. Now last semester I had a class in children’s literature with no one, no blacks. Both of my children literature classes didn't have black students.

Lack: And that’s an issue because when you’re trying…

Bartolome: When you’re trying to read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, about the racial situations, then how do you hear the other side. It’s very difficult. It’s hard and it’s not right.

Lack: What do you do?

Bartolome: I hope they are trying to do something.

Lack: So when you first came to the department, it was very small and you taught a lot and were very busy. How did things change as you got bigger? Did you have more committee work or did you always have committee work?

Bartolome: We always had committee work, but of course we had more students and maybe we were doing the job a little better because there are more qualified people teaching the subject. Although the newcomers are still complaining about work. They’re still complaining. For a time, we did have a reasonable load, now we have four. The thing about it is they expect professors to do research and write. Then they should be given time to do research and write.

Your promotion depends on that, then they should give you the time. That’s another thing. I think when it comes to ______, part of the ______ is already when you hire somebody, make sure that that somebody has the qualifications and the motivation to move on. Then how do you orient that person.

Lack: Was there a strong research component?

Bartolome: Sometimes they said teaching was important, that research was not important. But when it comes to making judgment, then it seems like it is. Now there are other fields that allow you to do that, but I think education, sociology, philosophy, the liberal arts are not easy. I have been in [Tenure and Promotion Committee?] where you judge this for scholarship and all that.

In some cases, science, they have _______, they have about 50 or 100 ______, but these are one or two pages. You can’t do that in education.

Lack: It’s very different.

Bartolome: Acceptance in publication in educational journals are very tough and you have to…you just don’t write two page ______. But in science and biology, mathematics, they can do it.

Lack: Yes, it’s very different. Did you attend conferences throughout your career?

Bartolome: Yes, I have attended conferences and given papers and things like that.

Lack: Did you get to know any of the administrators through the years? I guess when you came on board, it was Dr. Randall was probably just starting. No, Dr. Wagoner.

Bartolome: Well as they said when we had coffee, we all ran to Kenan and had coffee and everybody was there including Wagoner.

Lack: All the faculty.

Bartolome: All the faculties were there. If there was a get-together, all the faculties were there. Now you make an appointment. You’re lucky to get one per month. Even with the dean, you have to make an appointment so you say okay, I’ll see you next week at 4:00. Sometimes I wonder what they do that they can’t see you.

Lack: They’re hiding (laughter).

Bartolome: I don’t know. It seems like they think to get respect, they have to keep a distance.

Lack: But Dr. Wagoner you got to know.

Bartolome: Oh yes.

Lack: He was an educator.

Bartolome: He was an educator and he was there having coffee.

Lack: Did he actually teach some or no?

Bartolome: I don’t know, but what I know now is every administrator has to teach at least one course a semester. It’s in the contract.

Lack: Who are some of the other people that you remember from the early days, good or bad, or even from the not so early days? Who are some of the people you have gotten to know over the years?

Bartolome: Well I know Saul Bachner. I know Dr. Doss, I know Mrs. Stike. Well I think I know Dr. Wagoner and his wife. I’ve known some people in science like the Appletons, Janice Norris and ____ Norris. Because when we had parties, there were no department parties, just faculty parties. Ned Martin plus … some of their wives were friends of mine. Also we did have the Child Study Center for five years.

We had kindergarten because there was a space downstairs in the Department of Education where the offices were, there was a place for a day care center. We called it the Child Study Center. One room was for fine motor development and another room was for gross motor development. There was a listening _____. The office of the chair had a one way mirror. That’s how the building was designed really, to become like where education majors could watch children working. It was called the Child Study Center.

For five years it was there. I ran it. Our student teachers acted as teachers. When we became big, when we had Hayes, ______, Dr. Harkin and all that, they decided to get rid of it because they said the university had no business having a kindergarten and day care. I don’t know whether they did it because they didn't think I was doing a good job or they really needed the space. At the time, there were no kindergartens in the public schools.

So we had a long waiting list for the Child Study Center. Sometimes parents would call and say my child will be ready at this and this time and I want a space. Some of the professors’ children went to the center.

Lack: I think Beth Kaylor may have gone there.

Bartolome: Yes, yes and even the son of Dr. Wagoner, one of his sons went there. Now when we became big, one of the objections they had was first they needed the space. Secondly the student teachers that taught there were not experiencing the family school. So what we did at the beginning before they ended it, to answer that criticism, was to have them half there and half in the public schools. But even then, they decided to close it.

You know what, I bought my own day care. After that, I ran, I bought the Little Red Schoolhouse and I ran it for 19 years. Six-thirty in the morning I was there seeing that it was opened correctly and then at 9:00 I was here. Because at the time, you know, there were many of us already. I didn't have to do as much work as I used to do. I didn't have to teach all the subjects.

I taught reading, early childhood education which has something to do with the day care. So I even brought some of the children into my methods class and they could see what I was talking about when I said even 3, 4 and 5 years old can have _____ literacy, that they can learn what they’re capable of learning at the time if you taught them in a way they could understand it. So I had my children come and for 19 years I did that. That was good.

Lack: Did you sell it?

Bartolome: Yes, I did sell it because that was really a family enterprise. My parents were with me and on the weekends, they helped me. My nieces came in the summertime and they helped me spruce up the place and all those kinds of things. Then my parents got sick, they passed away and my nieces all grew up and moved other places. One day I was doing it by myself and it wasn’t fun so I asked the lady who had worked with me for about 15 years, I asked her if she was ready to take over and she said yes.

Lack: I’m sure it was an excellent day care.

Bartolome: Well I hope it was. I tried my best.

Lack: It’s in such need. We need good child care facilities.

Bartolome: But if parents are willing to pay, that’s true. Look at Montessori School, she went bankrupt. It’s not easy. It takes money, it takes time and if the parents are not willing to support it.

Lack: What about when graduate education was introduced? Well first of all, when was the Child Study Center operating, do you remember the years?

Bartolome: ’70 to ’74 I think or ’75. Maybe up until ’76.

Lack: Around there and then you owned the Little Red Schoolhouse starting in…

Bartolome: I think I bought it in ’74. Maybe the Child Study Center until 1974 and then I bought the Schoolhouse in 1974 and ran it until 1995.

Lack: That’s a long time, that’s wonderful. You saw those children and as they came back to see you, they’d be all grown up.

Bartolome: I know their parents. They’re all over the place, Dr. B, Dr.B, but that was good for me. It was a good involvement for me. I also did get a project from the State Department of Human Resources, Development and Training for day care. I think I had that from 1980 to 1982 maybe or ’83. What we did, I did not teach for 2-1/2 years. That’s all I did, that project, because it paid for my salary. I hired two trainers with me and we had fun.

Lack: That’s good.

Bartolome: Up to now, those two girls are still my friends.

Lack: And they worked in the day care center.

Bartolome: The Development and Training, they visited day cares and trained, yes we did. We had publications that we gave to day care centers so they could use it for teaching the children. So that’s what we did. We had training. We did work with Chapel Hill. There was a lady there at Chapel Hill that we worked very closely with. We tried to get the day care center to improve their environment and how to improve their teaching. That’s what we did.

Lack: So it was a good project.

Bartolome: It was a good project.

Lack: I suppose now, are you familiar with Smart Start?

Bartolome: Yes, Smart State is the state. Ours I think was federal.

Lack: I was going to ask you when did graduate education take place?

Bartolome: I don’t know, maybe ’85.

Lack: There are a bunch of graduate degrees now.

Bartolome: Our first one was in literacy I think.

Lack: Is King Hall too small now?

Bartolome: I think so because many of our classes, some of our classes are being held in Morton and some offices are also there in Morton Hall. Dr. Walker, I think his class is there. He asked me to give a lecture and it will be in Morton Hall on _______, a Russian philosopher in education.

Lack: So have there been plans for a long time to have a new building?

Bartolome: Oh yes, that was a long time in the making. I think Dr. Tyndall was instrumental in having that building become a reality . He’s a go-getter. He was the dean. Harkin was the first dean, from chair to dean. Then when Leutze came, it was changed.

Lack: And it became the Watson School of Education.

Bartolome: Even before that. Dr. Hulon was still alive, no, then it became Watson School of Education maybe eight years ago.

Lack: What do you think of the new building? Have you seen the designs?

Bartolome: I think it’s marvelous. It’s very great. I don’t like the way they’re selling it. I mean $250,000 for a room. How can somebody who has contributed to the development of education afford $250,000. They’re not honoring those who have contributed to the development of the School of Education. I could probably five $250 and that would just be a commode. I’ll just buy a commode if they offer me one (laughter).

Lack: Something that people see all the time, perhaps a supply closet (laughter).

Bartolome: I don’t know, I mean, it seems like they are even proud that they are selling it for such high prices.

Lack: It’s illustrating how expensive it is to build, but also it does show that educators, like you said, don’t have that kind of funding to throw around so they will be honoring people…

Bartolome: Who have nothing to do with education. Maybe it will be a CEO who will be in jail Monday.

Lack: That has been a problem for CEO’s lately.

Bartolome: Who can afford these things? I don’t know, maybe there are some, but not those whose heart is probably in education. I thought that those are things that you do to honor the contributions of those that have been there. I don’t mind if they call one of the buildings Tyndall even if he didn't pay $250,000.

Lack: Because he’s done so much.

Bartolome: He’s done so much to make it a reality and maybe he can afford it now, I don’t know (laughter). But not Dr. Bachner.

Lack: Right and it would be so fitting to have something done for him. It’s the same thing. They don’t name buildings after educators anymore.

Bartolome: But King Hall, he didn't pay for this.

Lack: So that’s when they were still doing it in honor of people.

Bartolome: I don’t know when this started, but I guess money is very important.

Lack: Which King was it named after?

Bartolome: Chapel Hill. I think he was one of the administrators at Chapel Hill. I’m sure he didn't pay for it, he couldn’t afford it.

Lack: I wonder what that building will be used for now, do you know?

Bartolome: Maybe classrooms. They might start another child’s study center there.

Lack: That would be wonderful for the employees, for their children, that would be wonderful.

Bartolome: That would be good. There are several parents who have asked for it already, but I think the university can’t afford it or something.

Lack: There’s such a need. I don’t have children, but I’ve observed with friends that there’s such a need for child care, for good child care.

Bartolome: Even for those that are learning to be with children. That would be a good idea.

Lack: Psychology, education.

Bartolome: One of the things that they did at the child’s study center was, they were watching how children responded to _______ experiment. That’s what they were watching at the time because psychology and education were one department. I think that’s another price of growing. Although I have seen other universities link their departments together instead of separating. Here our tendency seems to be to separate. I don’t know why. I know at Miami University, they have put together all the human resource departments together.

Lack: Oh, into one school.

Bartolome: One school or something like that.

Lack: Because there is so much overlap across disciplines. It would be good to get courses cross listed so you can get some upper level courses, get more diverse students, not just from one major.

Bartolome: Well I have seen the arts department made into different departments instead of working together. Then you have more chairs and you can have more plants (laughter).

Lack: You gave us some lovely plants. I’d like you to show us which ones when we’re done. Associate dean of landscaping.

Bartolome: I guess. Do you have any more questions.

Lack: I think I’ve covered it. It was a real pleasure talking with you today. I certainly learned something and I’m very glad to start getting the history of education and your contributions to it. Thank you.

Bartolome: You’re welcome.

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