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Interview with Toni Barfield, May 11, 2005 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Interview with Toni Barfield, May 11, 2005
May 11, 2005
Mrs. Barfield served as an instructor and was fundamental in developing the nursing program first at Wilmington College then UNCW. She graduated from UNC-CH school of nursing in 1963 with a BSN at age 22. She joined the faculty at Wilmington College in 1968 and taught for many years. Mrs. Barfield explains that that she aquired her speciality in OB-GYN only in response to the increasing demand for classes in the field. She explains that nursing student did their psychiatry training at Cherry Hospital and mentions the first male graduate in 1972.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee:  Barfield, Toni Interviewer:  Mims, LuAnn / Parnell, Jerry Date of Interview:  5/11/2005 Series:  Southeast North Carolina (SENC) Length:  60 minutes


Mims: Today is May eleventh, 2005. I am LuAnn Mims with Jerry Parnell for the Randall Library Special Collections. We are continuing our series on health services of southeastern North Carolina and have the benefit of talking to Mrs. Toni Barfield who was an instructor at Wilmington College, to begin with, and then UNCW School of Nursing.

Barfield: Um hum.

Mims: How are you doing today?

Barfield: I'm good. I'm so glad to have this opportunity to share with you.

Mims: We would like to get a little bit of personal information, where you grew up, what your family life was like, etcetera.

Barfield: Oh my. Well, we lived a lot of places, but when I was ten we moved to Chapel Hill and they had just started a four year nursing school then. And our next door neighbor was in the first class. And that was sort of a...a prompting for me about nursing and thinking about nursing. My dad finished his graduate degree and we left Chapel Hill and lived in North Wilkesboro which is a small town in the mountains. And when I was in high school, I still wanted to be a nurse. My parents insisted, of course, that I had to go to college, and Chapel Hill was the really good match. But unlike so many nurse today...everybody I work with has got...gotten into nursing after another field or the nontraditional students. I mean, this is so much more in the forefront now.

But I was seventeen, going to Chapel Hill, I think oh my goodness, how did you ever send me, you know! And so I ended with...up with a degree a nurse at twenty two and haven't...well maybe sometimes I have looked back...but haven't looked back. And um...moved here in 1968, the summer of 1968.

Mims: Now you're time in Chapel Hill in training. Can you give us a little overview about that? Now this was a BSN program they had a Chapel Hill?

Barfield: Right and that's...that's why I went. Because I, you know, I wanted to be a nurse and Chapel Hill had a BSN as did Duke. Those were the two choices in that day. This was 1958 when I started, and those were the only two programs in the state. And...except for the diploma programs...and, of course, all my friends, everybody went to the diploma school. And when we'd go home, they were all doing things and we were still talking with patients and hadn't really seen anything to do yet. You know, it took a while, it was a different...a whole different type of nursing education at the time. Which is similar to what's happened here with the advent of, you know, the BS program from the eighties, so...

Mims: Is the curriculum where you're like general college for the first two years, or...?

Barfield: No, when I went, was all...

Mims: Inclusive?

Barfield: ...intermeshed, yea. We...we started with nursing in the first year...basic fundamentals and nutrition and then it built...and we took what we called campus courses...the one course in English a semester, or the one history course that...that helped us be normal students. Yea, we got to do that, you know, we had a few selections like that, but it was all molded together.

Mims: Did you start your clinicals right away, or...?

Barfield: No, no, that's why, you know, friends who were in diploma programs were just so far ahead of us, because they...they knew, when we home for Thanksgiving and Christmas, they'd already been taking care of patients. And that...that was troublesome to me, I wanted to be doing the patient work and...but that came. That has come and I'm doing it, and so...

Mims: What about your...we're very curious about uniforms. As a student, did you have to wear a student uniform?

Barfield: Yes. A very prescribed uniform. It was navy...well, it was a dark blue, not navy. I...I don't know what you call it, short sleeve, and everything had to be attached. The was blue, that color blue, cause we did public health.

Mims: Sure.

Barfield: That was part of the program.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: So you would have that uniform during your senior year if you could still fit into it and get to do your public health in it. But you had to attach a collar, cuffs, and then an apron. And all of those pieces, the apron not so severely starched, but the cuffs, the collar and the cuffs were starched to the nines. I mean, it was just most uncomfortable. And then we had to sit down and pull the apron around and that...that was just a lot of to-do. It was, you know, it was very traditional.

Mims: So, continuing with that tradition, did they have the traditional capping ceremony?

Barfield: We did.

Mims: At what point in your curriculum did they do that?

Barfield: Well, actually, no we didn't have capping. We got our caps...we didn't have a ceremony.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: We got our caps with the uniform.

Mims: Oh, okay.

Barfield: And our cap was distinct in that it just had embroidered on it UNC. And...and really that was all. I...I don't remember a special ceremony. The pinning at the end was...we did have a pinning ceremony, but not a capping.

Mims: that...that was not something with the diploma schools talk about the bands to let people know where they are with their program.

Barfield: No we didn't. Our cap was the...from the beginning, as a student and now...and all through when I was, you know, processions at UNCW, it was still the same cap.

Mims: We just know there's a lot of pride and tradition tied into the cap so we always want to include that in our interview.

Barfield: I still have three, I think. I still...I know...and...and I lend them out periodically. Different people who...we have quite a few Carolina graduates here in town...

Mims: Really?

Barfield: ...and people who forget, you know, don't have one and might need it for something. So we...

Mims: And then you got your pin at graduation?

Barfield: Well, it was a separate ceremony.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: And probably much more meaningful to us than the...the big...the big graduation.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: Because the pinning ceremony was your family and friends and everybody else that wanted to come to it. It was a very elaborate affair and a big reception afterwards.

Mims: About how many graduated from your class?

Barfield: I want to say 35 from 75. It was 35 or 36. We had our 40th reunion last fall a year ago and I think we're probably down to thirty...twenty nine, thirty...we've had some losses, but...

Mims: We've primarily been talking to the James Walker and the Community diploma school graduates. So we're now just coming in to UNCW and of course Wilmington College earlier. You came in 1968.

Barfield: Um hum.

Mims: But when did you graduate from...?

Barfield: I graduated from Chapel Hill in sixty three.

Mims: So what did you do in that five year period?

Barfield: Well, I worked for two years in Chapel Hill, now it's UNC Hospital system. And then we moved to Winston Salem. My husband took a job at Ernst&Ernst and we were in Winston Salem for three years. And I didn't work the first year. The other two years I taught at Forsythe Hospital School of Nursing, which was a three year diploma school. And it was a very similar situation as to what happened here, is that I just got a phone call out of the blue from somebody who had gotten a roster of degreed graduates in the area and wanted to know if I'd be interested doing some clinical instruction. And I thought well this might be, you know, something I good do and it was part time...worked into full time, so...

Mims: Um, do you know who wrote that...generated that phone call?

Barfield: Oh, no. I can't even think...

Mims: Was it a doctor or was it somebody connected with the school.

Barfield: It was somebody with the school. They were enlarging the program. It sounds so similar to what's going on here now, like at Cape Fear because of the need for nurses.

Mims: Right.

Barfield: This would have been in...yea, that was probably 1966, '67, in that area. And they were...they wanted to enlarge their program...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: ...and were looking for additional instructors...had a new director coming, and they just, you know, it was really a nice time to get started cause it was a whole new infusion of people and we...we had a good time, we really did.

Mims: Well you're the second person I've talked to that was in this infant program that received a phone call. Mary Alice Whitfield said she received a phone call, and it's that BSN and nurse educator and it's...they were really pulling to get people in.

Barfield: Right, which then was what they needed. Now, of course, they need the masters or the doctorate and that's the crises as it is now, is that there just aren't enough...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: ...for the education, and so we're sitting on a...on a real problem in the next ten, twenty years, cause we're all retiring. And...and nursing education needs...needs help. But in a way we may have caused some of our having so many demands for the PhD or the masters...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: ...then, you know, we don't have enough to educate those with a BSN.

Mims: And also attending this advocacy...advocate board meeting...talking about the discrepancy between the pay. A nurse educator at a masters or PhD make a lot more doing clinical hospital, or whatever, and they're saying it's so unbalanced...

Barfield: I cannot tell you the difference in...I shouldn't...

Mims: Well, I mean, we...we know that is a part of what the issue is...

Barfield: And the other part is that whenever I...I want to balance it, you know, you can go into overtime, you can do all these kinds of things at the hospital that you couldn't...

Mims: Sure.

Barfield: ...can't do at the university...

Mims: Right.

Barfield: know what I'm saying.

Mims: And then the criteria for much research, much publish is still looming and so that again takes away. So, yea, it is kind of self created.

Barfield: Yes.

Mims: Um, when you came into the program, it was still Wilmington College. Luetta Booe...

Barfield: It was the last year...

Mims: ...was...was over the...

Barfield: I think she pronounced it "boo".

Mims: Boo, okay.

Barfield: Uh huh, she was, and it was a phone call from Luetta.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: It was the summer of '69.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: I had been here a year. This was my first and only year alone, I mean, at home with...with my...well at that time we had our first child...and this phone call came was late, it was like August. And she...she had gotten my name from the university and would...and that I had taught. And, you know, would I be interested in doing some part time clinical. Again, it was clinical instruction which is a very comfortable way to present it, because you know your clinical skills. And then never having been in an education program, or taking any education courses or teaching know, I...I had no skills that way. And so the clinical instruction is always, you know, is always helpful to hear, so I thought "Yea, I will." And she said there was another person that was interested and that I might know her and that was Jeanine Smith...

Mims: Jeanine, uh huh.

Barfield: Jeanine and I were in the same class at Chapel Hill, which really was neat, and we both ended up here together, came the same summer...and she was in...she was already a nurse from a program in Washington DC...and they selected ten nurses every year to join us in Chapel Hill to sort of create a...a balance...experienced nurses going for their BS with us eighteen year olds not realizing what we were doing. So she was in my class. And that was a really neat thing. So we took this on and did it part time.

Mims: Can you, um, give us a definition of a clinical instructor? Like what...?

Barfield: Well our only responsibility, and that's highlighted in Luetta's paper...

Mims: Okay, I have that.

Barfield: Our responsibilities were in the hospital situation with the students. We were responsible for the students learning at the bedside and in the hospital. We did not do any classroom preparation. It evolves though that you have conferences, you have post and pre, and you're doing so much that you're, you know, it's a's a different way of interactive instruction. Of course it was before computers. I mean, everything they were getting was...was how they...what they did in the hospital.

Mims: Talk...talking to some of the nurses that came out of the seems like you would be the one that would be watching the procedures.

Barfield: Right.

Mims: I understand they had to do something like times four or whatever to be checked off. Tell us about how that worked.

Barfield: I don't remember all the times. I'm sure the students remember the numbers...

Mims: Right.

Barfield: ...a whole lot better than I do. I just know that...that there were checklists and you had to complete everything. And that was a challenge to the instructor to be sure that you could find the assignments that would...would give this experience. You know, one of the cliches is "That would be a good patient for a student," you know, were always looking for the good patient or the good situation so that you could...could get...give the student the learning experience. And the hospital, I will say, was very generous. I don't remember ever feeling that...that...I mean, I always, as a personal situation would go in a talk to a patient and ask, you know, say that I was looking at my assignments for the next day, or whatever, and wondered if, you know, they would have a student nurse. I always asked permission. But the hospital was very generous always with their...with us, and with...with the students.

Mims: So you would have to select a patient and select a proper student to do whatever they needed to do.

Barfield: We did that then. I'm not seeing that now. Now the instructors...the clinical people come in and they have a student come with each of us we...and I'm doing the same thing I was doing...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: ...only I'm not the instructor, I'm the bedside nurse.

Mims: Um hum. Was there a training facility available to you at the hospital, like if you had to go over a procedure...or they were expected to know that in the classroom?

Barfield: Nothing at the hospital.

Mims: Nothing at the hospital.

Barfield: Except their in-services that we could attend, or the students could attend and different doctors would, you know, if they had free time, they would sit down and talk. But all the training, all the basic things we did in a lab, a room, set aside Hoggard Hall.

Mims: Did you...were you part of that?

Barfield: And they had beds...oh yea, yea. Well, that was what...we did that and then got them ready for the hospital. So the whole...the whole first semester, or the first half of the semester was getting students ready to go to the hospital. And that was in a...oh like a situation that would be like, you know...

Mims: We actually found a picture in one of the early Fledgling's, the annual, and it's nurses taking a test. But the picture is wide enough that you can see hospital beds in the back of the room and these drapes.

Barfield: Uh huh, that would have been the lab Hoggard.

Mims: At Hoggard.

Barfield: Because we had probably nine or ten beds.

Mims: So that's what that is.

Barfield: Uh huh. And it was...and I was reading Luetta's...just reading over it before you came...and it was...she even gets it to the northeast and the whatever corner of Hoggard, but it was an old biology lab that was converted...yea.

Mims: Uh huh.

Barfield: So we had that, and then we taught, I mean, we...we had the classroom part at the front, or you know, we could do around in it...and it gave lots of leeway. I mean, I even had a sick child and when Helen was sick, I would just take her out there and put her up on one of those beds! Before she went to know, when she was three and four.

Mims: Sure.

Barfield: If she was sick, she'd just come and stay, you know, and we could pull the curtains around...

Mims: Uh huh.

Barfield: I remember doing that.

Mims: So, what part of their this is still part of the two-year program that we're talking about...

Barfield: I never taught in anything but the two-year program.

Mims: Where...did they jump right away into these clinical situations, or where in the curriculum did the...?

Barfield: It was in the first semester. It was a two year program, and by-in-large people finished in the two years...and...two years and the middle summer.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: And the summer was to go to Cherry Hospital for their...

Mims: The rotation?

Barfield: ...Psychiatry experience. And we were still going to Cherry when I was there. And that...that was quite an interesting experience. And then...cause I...I did go for several summers with Dorothy Dixon and Mary Alice Whitfield, as the third instructor. So that was...that was an eye-opener. But...I think we...we probably went to the hospital by Thanksgiving. The basic, you know, we'd starting the semester and do the fundamental type things and you know, how to make a bed, how to do a.m. care, p.m. care, you know, the bath and the backrubs and the different things like that. And then...then you would build...but...but you had to have some of that down before you'd go to the hospital.

Mims: Was there ever any instruction on, uh, behavior, like professionalism? Or was that included in other classes?

Barfield: That was strict...eventually it was in the senior year and just before you were to graduate. But it was inherent in the program, you know, we would...certainly taught, I mean, do your own philosophy in your own groups and your own interactions. interacted with all the students, you rotated them through the different instructors, the different clinical settings, so that they were always exposed to all of us. And we all offered a different...probably a very different philosophy. But there was nothing structured until the very end.

Mims: Um hum. Because talking to some of the older nurses, at the very onset, you know, they were told "stand when a doctor enters the room," you know, "give your seat up to senior nurses," etcetera, etcetera, and, um, I'm trying to figure out when did that start changing.

Barfield: Well, that sort of...because I went to Chapel Hill in the late '50s and that program was new and the dean had her doctorate and this sort of thing, we were sort of a fledgling group that...we weren't told that. We were the pioneers that...we were the new breed.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: You know, you don't have to do this sort of thing. I will say that I acquiesced and always did do it. I mean, just still did in the '50s and '60s, and if I were doing it the students would follow me and do it, I mean this sort of thing, we did do that, we did. We always made way for you know...

Mims: The professional respect.

Barfield: Yes, oh yea, definitely.

Mims: Cause I can't imagine some seventeen, eighteen year olds out there you know...

Barfield: And I don't remember...I don't remember which doctor it was, I want to say it was Bruce Dorman coming into the nurses station saying "it unnerves me to have all these student nurses jump up, it's like a...a flight of birds getting out of the way" know, and I can remember him saying that,, I think that was still definitely was going on the late six...early '70s. It's changed.

Mims: Definitely.

Barfield: Dramatically now.

Mims: Now, I...I'm gathering that you had a specialty interest. Is that what you instructed?

Barfield: Not at first. In nursing...coming out of nursing and getting your first job, which certainly wasn't a problem, and you know, it were interviewed, but everybody started in what we called medical/surgical nursing.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: The basics. worked on a medical/surgical or a medical floor or a surgical floor which are the basic floors. And we just did that and we didn't go on to something special until you had a background the basics. So I...that's what I did for the three...two years I was in Chapel Hill, and then at Forsythe, that's what I taught in the clinical labs, you know, I would be on medical/surgical floors. It wasn't until I came here and the...Mary Alice Whitfield was teaching maternity and she needed help...and the classes were getting bigger, and so, we just sort of said, "Well, I'll do this and I'll do that," and I starting teaching OB and maternity nursing with her. And that would have been in seventy two...seventy two. Helen was born in '72 and all this happened in '72, yea. And I've been doing maternity ever since. So, it didn't specialize until...until then.

Mims: Um hum. Well, you keep mentioning names, so let's kind of talk about some of these people.

Barfield: Oh, okay.

Mims: Um...Ms. Booe?

Barfield: Ms. Booe.

Mims: Ms. Booe. Tell us what she was like.

Barfield: She was...goodness...I...she was a slight, very, um, erect...very well...healthy... healthy woman. I, and you know, just immaculate. She was a...a country girl I would say. I don't know how else to describe her. She came from a large family, there were a lot of sisters. She...she would always talk about them. She never married. She lived right over here in Oleander Court Apartments.

Mims: Really?

Barfield: And her claim to fame was, she baked a Mississippi mud cake. She know, she ate out most her meals and...and devoted her whole life to nursing. She had been an Army nurse as I...I think remember that.

Mims: I think so.

Barfield: Yea. And...and eventually then taught different places and got her call to come here and...and retired from here. And then went on back home and took care of her sisters. And she would come back with the retired faculty programs. I know there was one just recently, like this past week. She would come back for that, and she would always call Jane and I, you know, and be in town...we'd get together with her. And then...and we always heard from her at Christmas and sent cards...cause she loved asking about our children...cause...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: ...we were out there with them a lot. And then we learned, you know, that she had died about four or five years ago.

Mims: But a long healthy life.

Barfield: Yea, she really did. And she was a very healthy person, I mean, she truly was. She took care of herself.

Mims: It was...

Parnell: Where was she from?

Barfield: I want to say was an area right outside of Knoxville. I can' may come...I can put it on the back burner...right know I don't remember but it...

Mims: I think we have that.

Barfield: ...was near Knoxville. Yea, it's that area.

Mims: Um, we know that once she stepped down as director, she continued on as an instructor.

Barfield: Yea, she did. That, again, we had grown at this point. She was doing the classroom instruction of the medical/surgical as...and then Jane and I were too. We...we all did it together, and just depended on what semester we were in, what you did. And she did clinical instruction too. She still was coming to the hospital at the very end...always.

Mims: So you had to have had a good rapport with the hospital.

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: If any incident came up with a student, would they go talk with you directly, or would they go to the to you?

Barfield: They was always with us first I'm sure, I mean, you know, it's just a really...yea, we really were close with 'em.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: Dorothy Dixon, who became the active...I don't know that she was ever the dir...I don't remember all...

Mims: She was listed as the director.

Barfield: Okay. She was acting there for a while and then became the director. And Dorothy was close, but she was a James Walker graduate.

Mims: Yea.

Barfield: And she knew a...

Mims: No. No, she wasn't a James Walker graduate...

Barfield: Oh.

Mims: ...she was the Director of Nurses that students over there...

Barfield: Okay. So she knew...well she had a real in...

Mims: Right, right.

Barfield: ...that's...that's exactly...that's it. 'Cause her cap was one of those pretty...

Mims: Pouf...pouffy.

Barfield: Organdy...yea.

Mims: I think she was from New England or...

Barfield: Yea, that's right. But she knew everybody and all the supervisors were her buddies...had either been her former students and everything. So she had a real in and she...she...until she became director, she was doing clinicals in the hospital. So there was always a...a free flowing...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: with us.

Mims: Yea. Just doesn't sound like you get stuck doing something over and over.

Barfield: No, no. it was...It was really good.

Mims: Now, Ms. Dixon...we...we're trying to piece looks like she died suddenly.

Barfield: She did. I had forgotten about the open-heart surgery. I was not involved with that. And Luetta's paper says about that year. I came along right after that.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: But she never was really healthy...

Mims: Really.

Barfield: ...for me to know. She was a smoker and she continued, you know, she really always breathed heavily and, you know, there was always a problem, I think. And she was never feeling real, real good. She lived down on the water and I think her niece lives there know, but she...she...she fell. She had cancer. She fell...but it was the fall, she was in her kitchen, I believe on a stool, and fell and then the X-rays showed that she had the cancer. So then it was just a very sudden...after that.

Mims: Cause we read all these things...

Barfield: That's what I remember.

Mims: ...we read these things...we read these things that her names there, then all of a sudden...

Parnell: All of a...yea...

Mims: ...just within like a...

Parnell: ...a couple weeks, then somebody else is actually writing...

Mims:'s saying like Nancy Haddock or Nancy Gillian...

Barfield: Well, now, she's available too, yea, Nancy Haddock...

Mims: Well, which...we're trying to figure out the difference between Nancy Haddock and Nancy Gillian. We thought they were the same person at first.

Barfield: No, no, no, no. Um...and I'm not...I'm not sure...Nancy...all of us were on the faculty at the same time. Nancy Gilllan and Nancy Haddock. Nancy Gillian, I believe, is very ill right now too. She and Helen Majeet are very close, and the best way you'll get up with her would be through Helen Majeet.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: Um, but, I think Nancy Gillian did become the acting...or the interim person when Dorothy had to resign or when she died. I can't remember which...she had resigned or died, I don't remember the details. But Nancy Haddock was on the faculty then and then she...

Mims: I'm not sure whether she's a nurse...this is what I'm...

Barfield: Oh yea, oh yea.

Mims: ...she...because...

Barfield: Nancy Haddock is a nurse and she's...

Mims: Is she at Elderhaus now?

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: That's

Barfield: She is. She was actually the Director of Nursing at New Hanover.

Mims: Really?

Barfield: Yea. She left...she left after Marlene Rosenketter came. Many of us did. And Nancy left and went to Virginia somewhere and then they needed a new director...a new person to be in charge of all maternal child at New Hanover and I'd already gone over there and Mary Lou...that's another person, Mary Lou Alford who was the Director of Nursing at New Hanover at the time. We were just brainstorming and I said, "Well you know Nancy Haddock is available because I hear from her and she's in R...I think it was Roanoke Virginia"...and she was not sounding like it was the best place. So she...Mary Lou called her and she came back and took this job and then became Director of Nursing at New Hanover. And then...I think she took an appointment at the university for a couple...I'm not sure...sure where it's been, but now she's with Elderhaus.

Mims: Yea, because...

Barfield: Or Child Development Center.

Mims: Well, she was at the Child Development and now I I can figure out, she's at Elderhaus now.

Barfield: Yea, that might be it.

Mims: Okay. But we have both of their names. There was like a...a hierarchy chart, you know...

Barfield: See they came later and we swelled in ranks. At first it was just Jeanine and I. And then Jeanine only worked one year. She just had three little boys and she left and went home and Jane Lowe came back.

Mims: Jane Lowe.

Barfield: Jane had been there and she stayed home with young children. So I sort of had the pleasure of being there a year with Jeanine and then Jane came back, and so...and then for a long time...well for several years it was Dorothy and Luetta, and Mary Alice, and Jane and I.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: And then it increased to...there was a Nancy White at one time, and I don't what's ever happened with her. I think she has since died. There were just several people...Eloise Thomas who was head of Hospice came to work with us at one time and she has since retired from heading up the Hospice program. And...and Nancy Haddock, and Nancy Gillian and Helen Majeet. Jeanne Kemppainen who is now out there. She'd be a valuable resource.

Mims: We...we met her, and...

Barfield: Jeanne...Jeanne worked with us originally, then left, and was in California for a number of is back, so, yea.

Mims: Um hum. We...we got to meet her...

Barfield: She was in our time.

Mims: ...and I've since found...found her photo in a lot of the older faculty...

Barfield: Yea, she was there.

Mims: ...and so, definitely want to get up with her. Now Dr. Rosenketter, we understand, was...was brought on board because they knew they were going to go into the four year program. But before that there was like a...a Ketcher...Ketchum.

Barfield: Joan Ketcher.

Mims: Yes. She was brought in to develop curriculum prior to this. Do you remember her?

Barfield: Oh yes. She had been a nun. Oh she was...I mean truly, she was the most delightful person. She went on to Cape Fear and the stu...the graduates now of Cape Fear will tell you about Ms. Ketcher. I mean, I work with a girl who can tell me everything that Joan Ketcher has ever ever taught her. She's, you know, yea...she went on...she...she left not long after Dr. Rosenketter came.

Mims: Right.

Barfield: And went to Cape Fear Community College.

Mims: Do you know if she's still living, or...?

Barfield: Oh yea I think she is!

Mims: We'll have to...

Barfield: I think she is. I don't know...

Mims: ...try to find her.

Barfield: Yea. She would be invaluable...because she did have files and she did develop the curriculum.

Mims: Right, cause I...

Barfield: She should be credited with it.

Mims: ...well I found that she was the one that came in and developed this.

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: And they brought Dr. Rosenketter in because of, I guess her military experience or something, and just...we understand she didn't even have what her...

Parnell: Her PhD was in...


Parnell:, yea.

Mims: It wasn't in nursing, so...

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: know, it was like they were going for something else.

Barfield: Well, and it...and it seemed that way because the degree was something else. It was the Bachelor of Science but it wasn't in nursing, you know, that was always our question. I mean, my degree is a Bachelor of Science in nursing.

Mims: Right. But she had a nursing degree, but it was from a diploma school.

Barfield: She...she...interestingly, I...I say this, maybe off the record...she...

Mims: We know that UNCW, Wilmington College, kind of got the program by default. When James Walker and Community closed, was agreed that New Hanover would not become a...a teaching hospital for having their own nursing program. The...across the country it was going to an academic setting. Cape Fear was not set up for this and all along James Walker and Community graduates had been taking classes at Wilmington College.

Barfield: Um hum.

Mims: So the program came into this. And it was called the James Walker Memorial Associate Degree in Nursing. And as far as you know it maintained that the entire time, it never...

Barfield: Yes, I mean, we never said it all, but it was on all the, you know, like the programs and graduation and all that...yea, definitely.

Parnell: Toward the end it disappeared somewhat, so we didn't know if it was official...

Mims: We thought like '73ish or something, it looked like it kind of...some...some literature we got...

Barfield: Oh, it may be that that was about when Luetta retired. And probably nobody attended to that detail.

Mims: Probably so.

Barfield: I may be wrong, you know, cause she was...she was always keen on that because it had, you know, it had started the whole...

Mims: Now this may tax your memory a little bit...

Barfield: It may!

Mims: Feel free to decline here...we have an interesting fact that in 1972 the program graduated their first male.

Barfield: I know, oh and he's still working...he works at New Hanover.

Mims: Well he goes by the name of Michael Smith...

Barfield: Uh huh.

Mims: And he's so hard to find...Michael Smith.

Barfield: Oh I can...I can have him call you.

Mims: Really? Oh my...

Parnell: Okay.

Barfield: I see Michael all the time. He's a CRNA. He's a...he is a nurse anesthetist.

Mims: Really?

Barfield: And his sister Cheryl graduated in...probably the first the first...Cheryl Smith.

Mims: Um hum, cause we are looking for...we are looking for '67, '68 graduates.

Barfield: They would...well this would be a real coup if you could get this brother/sister...Cheryl is married to Leif Lofgren who is one of our physicians, obstetrician/gynecologist.

Mims: Oh really?

Barfield: L-O-F-G-R-E-N. Cheryl Lofgren.

Parnell: I have seen that name.

Barfield: Uh huh. But Cheryl's younger brother Mike...and Michael's, I'm sure Mary Alice told you, or did she...?

Mims: No. She was recovering, so there were some things we didn't...

Barfield: Well, we would go to the clinical area and we would troop in and here we'd all be, and Michael with us, and she'd say "And I want you to meet our male student." And Michael said, after about the fourth time of being introduced, he thought people pretty well realized that he was the male student. He...he will tell you that...he is...oh he's delightful!

Mims: Is he?

Barfield: Oh yes!

Mims: He looks so young in these pictures, he looks like he's...

Barfield: Oh he was...well, of course...and he's married...I think his wife...she's associated with some big program.

Mims: Really?

Barfield: Yea. He's...oh you need to talk with Michael.

Mims: Well, there's a...a picture of the class and they're all holding their Florence Nightingale lamps and everybody has on a cap except for him.

Barfield: Uh huh.

Mims: So, did they have to change some of the regulations to allow...

Barfield: Well, men don't...the men...male nurses never wore caps.

Mims: Never did.

Barfield: No, not that I know of. After Michael we...we got several corpsmen...Jerry Burleson, who is now head of Employee Health at New Hanover came through the two year program here and...and, you know, I can't remember any of them ever needing a or wanting to wear a cap.

Mims: There was another one, another picture that I found, that a gentleman is being pinned.

Barfield: Uh huh.

Mims: And I think his name is Charles, but I...his last name is escaping me...but it said that he was voted as the first pres...male president of the student nursing association. Would you...?

Barfield: It's probably Charles Smith.

Mims: I think it's...I want to say...

Barfield: In that particular class we had two Charles Smiths, and one went by Chuck and was very confusing. We called 'em tall Chuck and short Chuck. (laughing) Yea, and there was a third male in that class. Yea...we really did...we...

Mims: Uh huh.

Barfield: In that particular...Joe...Joe somebody was in that class. But I...I...see I can't remember him because he wasn't Charles...

Mims: Charles or Chuck.

Barfield: But...and Charles...the one who was voted and went on, he went on in nursing too, Jane will remember. Jane Lowe will remember.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: But I know he has at least his masters and possibly his PhD.

Mims: Wow.

Barfield: He did go on.

Mims: So, you know, we...we're finding that...that the males are coming in a lot stronger. Michael was the first attempt...

Barfield: He was. And he probably was just out of high school. I don't remember that he had any other experiences beforehand like the corpsmen, and like Jerry and Chuck, and some of those. I...I don't remember that. I remember Michael as just being young.

Mims: Uh huh. And do you see a good many, I mean, every year...was it still sporadic that guys would be coming in?

Barfield: It was sporadic. There'd be one or two...three. I think three was the most we ever had.

Mims: Hum. Another issue that comes up, of course, is the integration. We're living in the deep-south, the two diploma schools here were segregated. Um, coming into Wilmington College, you know, African Americans and Whites were now taking the same classes together. Um...never an issue from what I understand.

Barfield: I don't think so. We did our own interviewing in the seventies. I can only think of those years, I don't remember much in the late sixties doing anything and being a part of that, but in the seventies...and we did our interviewing, and it was more your...your leaning toward the nursing and the nurturing and everything, and if you passed the work, you know, but I don't think that was a problem. Now there is a wonderful black instruc...former professor out there and instructor...Doretha Stone. Have you talked with her?

Mims: I, but I have seen her picture.

Barfield: You need to talk with her.

Mims: She lives here?

Barfield: Oh yea.

Mims: Ah! Oh I need her number.

Barfield: Doretha...well, it would be under William's Doretha or William. William...he has died. And Jane again is a good resource there.

Mims: Okay, cause I've...I've seen her picture when I'm...

Barfield: She was...she worked...she was the head nurse on the Pediatric unit.

Mims: Really?

Barfield: And Jane recruited her. She had a degree from Winston-Salem State. And once we found that out, we she came...she came with us and taught with us. And left the hospital...and then, she has her own business. It's's's on North Fourth Street almost across from the old NoFo warehouse.

Mims: Yea.

Barfield: And it's a cute little building and it's for empowering black women.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: I'm not too sure. I don't know what...

Mims: Okay, it may be where the Arts Council used to be.

Barfield: It may be. But she...she did...and she would be able to tell you, you know...

Mims: See this is wonderful to be able to talk to somebody...

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: ...because I see these pictures and I see the names, but I have no clue if their name is changed...

Barfield: Well good. I just hope I'm a help. If I could facilitate anything, that's all I care about.

Mims: Yea, this is...cause um, you know, we have been, up until this time, only talking to nurses from the two diploma schools...

Barfield: Right.

Mims: ...but we're now ready to make a connection to UNCW and so this is...

Barfield: We're right there in it.

Mims: You are right there in it and you're there at the early on, um, fledgling, fledgling program you''re working in. And so you were kind of part of developing what it is today.

Barfield: Oh yea.

Mims: Tell us, you know, that, you know, how you worked yourself into that, I mean...

Barfield: Well, I think...I'd have to back up. Never ever have I taken an education course. So I don' know,''s weird because the teaching and the classroom teaching and instruction all came just from doing your own notes and what you thinks important and...and digesting the material and trying to get it to the students and doing it in the clinical area, I mean, it's sort of backward. Doing the clinical and then getting it down the funnel learning how to present it in a classroom. I think that was difficult, and yet it was so hands on...people ask me now, "well don't you miss teaching?" Yea...and I thought, hum, I do but that's what all of nursing is now anyway. I mean, everything is patient education. And so it's just a different person you're teaching. It's the patient directly, I mean, you're still doing the same thing.

Mims: Right. It's just...

Barfield: But we did work together. And now, for me, because I'm still in it and have been at the hospital since '84, all of my former stud...not all, but many of my former students I work with. Or, you know, they're above me, you know, all around me, and we share lots of...of good things together. And that's been really nice.

Mims: Uh huh. So you're still working at the hospital?

Barfield: Uh huh.

Mims: You left UNCW in '84?

Barfield: '84.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: Nancy Haddock came back to town, became the director of maternal child nursing and hired me to be the manager of the OB floor.

Mims: Wow.

Barfield: Which is how it all evolved. And then she, you know, went on to be the Director of Nursing. So she'd be a good person.

Mims: Um...yea, definitely. I said we are interested in uniforms and that kind of stuff. The UNCW uniform, can you give us an overview of what that was like for the students?

Barfield: the two year program it was a light blue, very similar to the one I had as a student. A short sleeve with cuffs and...but I think everything was attached, they didn't have...they...they didn't have to put on...and it was a...I do know that it was polyester. It...I mean, or when polyester came in, I know that we switched.

Mims: Uh huh.

Barfield: And it made it much more user friendly for the students. Because, our students weren't like, I mean, and you know when I was coming along, the university laundry did it and you lived in a dormitory and they delivered it. wasn't the same. Our students lived off campus, they had to keep up with their uniforms, this sort of thing, so. It was a light blue. And they wore a cap. And their cap...and Jane and I always pri...prided...I think that's a word...prided ourselves in that they loved our cap and they have the embroidered UNCW on theirs, which is just one more letter than we have on ours. But you know, it was really interesting...and the first year it was embroidered on the wrong side and you...and when you looked at it didn't read correct...I don't know, you know, it...coming down in the little steps, so they...they...we've switched 'em now and you know...and they have a cap that had...had...has UNCW on it.

Parnell: Did they have one with just WC before that?

Barfield: No, I don't think so. I don't think it had anything on it. I think it was a plain one.

Mims: Now did they do a capping ceremony?

Barfield: Yes.

Mims: Cause we've got pictures of that and I thought it was a capping ceremony.

Barfield: I think we...yea we had capping and we had pinning. Um...

Mims: When would they get their lamps?

Barfield: That was at pinning.

Mims: At pinning they got their lamps.

Barfield: Um hum.

Mims: 'Cause traditionally the lamps came at capping, so um, what about the UNCW pin...we have a verbal description of it, but we haven't actually seen one. They said it was the seal...

Barfield: Um hum.

Mims: ...and...

Barfield: Um's''s a large, I mean, not large, but it's at least the size of a fifty cent piece. It's large...much larger...half...twice the size of mine.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: I always thought it was really, really pretty. It's round...because the university one has the, like the...cross...

Mims: Yea.

Barfield: ...the...I...

Mims: That's what we saw...Marlene's.

Barfield: Yea, that one's a little different. In other words, it''s almost like the center of the university one.

Mims: Right. With the scroll and...

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: Right.

Barfield: It has the Discere Aude...

Mims: Feather...yea, Discere Aude...

Barfield: ...that one...has that on it. It was a pretty pin.

Mims: And they would have a separate ceremony to receive their pins?

Barfield: And that became controversial toward the end. Particularly in the...the very last couple of years I was there and when Marlene had gotten there but hadn't start...her program wasn't underway.

Mims: Um hum, right.

Barfield: You know, she wanted to do away with it, and you know, and we insisted that it was the tradition for that program.

Mims: Right.

Barfield: You know, please, and I...I couldn't tell you, Roxanne would be the only person who'd know cause the was in that class. Those people, I don't know what...what they did, cause I left in the fall of eighty four and they finished in eight five, so I don't know.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: I feel very confident that they had a pinning ceremony.

Mims: I think she said they did.

Barfield: Because we...we really hung in there saying, you know, "You can't take everything away."

Mims: Um hum. And then when the four-year program came, it seemed like things really changed...the uniforms changed, the pin, the hat, you know, it was just kind of all different.

Barfield: Um hum.

Mims: So, I mean, you're helping us piece together history that we may never catch up on because it is so squeezed in kind of between a couple of things, so we know it was transitional, we know from the very beginning they wanted it to be a four-year program. And just the...

Barfield: You mean way...way back in the '60s.

Mims: When they...when they accepted the program.

Barfield: Right, of course.

Mims: That...the president at the time, William Madison Randall, we have letters that said "we will take this, but we are a four your institute and we are going to make it four years."

Barfield: And we went through several years that we were the only two-year degree. And we were kind of the step-child on campus.

Parnell: Um hum.

Barfield: I can remember that. Um, and I can...and it's understandable.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: But, well you know, we...we...

Mims: Managed to pull through it. But, the money, of course, we saw where there's all kinds of grants that were given to help with the transition. And of course grant money, or funds were given straight from the community to help get the program developed.

Barfield: Yea. And Babies Hospital, and just different...

Mims: AHEC.

Barfield: Yea, AHEC. They've all stayed with it, yea.

Mims: Um hum. So, you know, we're...we're just finding out that the diploma schools were directly tied to the community and then when the program went to the university it still maintained its ties to the community cause it, you know, providing nurses for this area was paramount, arrived right...the year after New Hanover opened.

Barfield: Right.

Mims: Cause they opened in sixty seven.

Barfield: Brand new, I mean, I can remember Luetta taking me on a tour...on the tour of the hospital and it was brand new, you know, and it was so...and now, of course, I mean, the hospital is so antiquated...

Mims: Yea.

Barfield: ...and everything, it's just amazing to me. But was brand new. They had just know, they had been in it a year.

Mims: A year, right. So, you know, it's just amazing, you know, that jumping in and doing this program at this new facility and just carrying all this out.

Barfield: Well and that was the value...the analogy to me is the students...the students and the hospital...the fit is very similar to the way the hospital fits right now in this community, I think, in that even though it's a major teaching hospital, and certainly the biggest in the southeast, and we, you know, Greenville is the nearest thing to us as far as...but our Neonatal unit is comparable and we deal...but it still has the hometown flavor. It still, even though it's a teaching hospital, and I will say, I don't know all the doctors like we used to. There's no way, but you still see people you've seen before or, you know,'s got that...which is what the old nursing program had too. There was a lot of give and take. And there are still a lot of people around who remember all that and keep it more community oriented.

Mims: Right, which is, I think, wonderful!

Barfield: It is, it's very valuable.

Mims: And then the projections that Dean Adams has set forward is they want to continue to provide the service for the area with the advancement or growth of PPD and their need for, I guess, research type nurses...and, you know, being able to provide that for the community. And of course New Hanover is going to only continue to grow, and then the little feeder, you know, surrounding clinics and hospitals. So, you know, its' a viable service that...that we need.

Barfield: Well, it is. And...and you know, if that seems to be a natural feed to PPD and everything, then that's why having Cape Fear with it's program...

Mims: Right.

Barfield: feed for the hospital...cause you're still gonna need people in the hos...I mean, the hospital nurses are leaving...

Mims: Right.

Barfield: droves. So they...they really need...need to feed...

Mims: How much time do we have?

Parnell: About ten minutes.

Mims: Um, we were curious about another thing, and that is the, I think it's called RN Access that how that was?

Parnell: Um hum.

Mims: It's if somebody came in with an associate degree then they could get the four year...

Barfield: Oh yea. There are funds available. Not having to access it or not fact, I think several people have done their masters that way too. And there was a masters offering not long...well, in...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: the '80s through East Carolina.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: And the hospital...AHEC, and East Carolina did that. But there are offerings and the hospital pays for the education.

Mims: Do you...can you recall any nurse in particular that may have come out of the eighties program and then later on went through...through this...or?

Barfield: The local...something local?

Mims: Yea.

Barfield: Ummm...I'll think about it, I can't remember...

Mims: Cause we know Ms. Blake went through the two year, but she had her own agenda to go through the four year and she did not do the...the transition at all. She went...went to the straight four year, so, you know, we're trying to find somebody that may have...

Barfield: Ummm...let me think...Ellen Carpenter. Try Ellen Carpenter.

Mims: Is that her...her name now you think?

Barfield: Ahhh...Rich...Richard Carpenter is her husband and it's Wayne Drive. And she...she works with me, but I, Ellen came through, got the AD and I know she's gotten the BS.

Mims: Probably...

Barfield: She may even be in the masters program by now.

Mims: See, and that's just...

Barfield: She's one person I can think of.

Mims: That's another thing she...Dean Adams is talking about, is kind of providing our own nurse educators here.

Barfield: Well that's...that's where the crises is apparently.

Mims: Right.

Barfield: You know, now all of a sudden we're realizing...if we don't have somebody to teach all these people...

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: We're not going to have nurses.

Mims: It'd be great to find somebody whose been through...kind of touched on...

Barfield: Right..

Mims: ...on some of these others. I know a nurse that came out of, um, the other tract, the other graduate tract. Which there's two tracts, one is for nurse educator that's just started, and then the one that came it nurse practitioner?

Mims: Yes...yea.

Mims: Right. She came out of that program, so...

Barfield: And that's the natural divide. Those of us who really want to be with the patient and tho...I...yea...I can see, you know, the...the practitioner is the one who...who loves to use their skills on...on hand, you know.

Mims: Right. But did! That's what's so amazing, is you're able to practice nursing, yet instruct at the same time because...

Barfield: Yea, that was really nice.

Mims: I mean...

Barfield: And at a critical time in medicine. You know, I mean for my age, everything happened in the seventies.

Mims: Right.

Barfield: All the...all the technology.

Mims: Right.

Barfield: And so, my classmates, when we were at the reunion, the ones who didn't stay with it, they say, "Oh we could never..." you know, they...they volunteer at Hospice because the could...they just say, "We could never do..." If you hadn't been in it, as it kept developing, you just wouldn't come back.

Mims: Well, how did you stay ahead of the students? I mean, that's a lot...

Barfield: Well it was not easy! I mean, you really did...I mean I...I worked a lot harder then than I do now. Because know, preparation and everything...

Mims: Sure.

Barfield: ...yea, exactly!

Mims: Cause I...I don't remember when those IVAC machines came in, but I...I did some...I was a secretary at a hospital, and I just remember those nurses were constantly... "I don't know how to work this thing!", you know, so just little temperamental things like that that come along.

Barfield: Yes.

Mims: You would have to be confident in your ability to do this. So how did you? Did you take, like, in services yourself?

Barfield: Yea, it's just being there, you had had to do it daily. You'd just say well, here we have this, and you'd learn with the...whoever was taking care of the were just right there as an apprentice, so...yea.

Parnell: Hands on learning.

Barfield: Yes, it really is.

Mims: Well, and that's what, you know, the diploma schools...were just super saturation of...of this, hands on.

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: No breaks from it. But in the AD program, you know, they could go and do...have another life, you know, they didn't have to...weren't required to stay there on the site.

Barfield: Right.

Mims: Were...were some of the students employed at the hospital ever?

Barfield: Yes. Even some of the early ones already had...had some feelings and...toward...I mean worked as nursing assistants...did a lot of different things, yes. I think there was always the nontraditional in the AD program here. I mean, it would be a mixed group. Some straight from high school, some...some preparing to make major changes in their lives.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: And then...yea...yea there was always a good mix of that.

Mims: We were lucky to talk to a nurse that helped develop the LPN program at Cape Fear Community College. I know sometimes people come out of that program and then they're interested in pursuing the RN.

Barfield: Yea.

Mims: Do you remember very many of those, or just...?

Barfield: Not in particular. I don't remember people...

Mims: Right.

Barfield: ...but I...there are some still. I...I' was working with me about a month ago and she's finishing up the...finished up this spring and has already been accepted in their RN and just moving right along. And know, I think that's commendable that they're starting, you know, doing it.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: And they she can work as the LPN...and you know, this is so different...they're financing their own way right along as they do it.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: And that's so good.

Mims: Cause the LPN program attracted a lot of people going through the change of life, you know, they're in transition. And I didn't know if that's what you were talking about that some...

Barfield: Both of 'em. The AD program here did the same thing.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: When you can see a two-year commitment and you can become an RN and...and get your life whatever it is you wanted to change...that that was very desirable.

Mims: Would...would you do it all over again?

Barfield: What, teach...nursing?

Mims: know, the tract that you took nursing that lead into teaching. Cause really are a nurse teacher.

Barfield: Yea, I probably would cause it just evolved for me. I, you know, truly only nursed the three years and then it all just kind of came together and was good for me. And then now I really enjoy doing what I do and...and I'll retire doing that, so, yea, I would do it all over again.

Mims: If you had to advise a young person coming into the field today, would you suggest a specific tract or, you know, cause I know that the expanded role of the nurse now, is kind of wide open field.

Barfield: No, I would have a hard time advising any specific tract. I...because...I mean, I would not be as closed as saying, "You must stay with med/surg because you still need that as a basis." We hire new graduates straight on for labor and delivery and maternity now, because it is in tracts. You can't keep up in medicine or nursing if you don't.

Mims: Um hum.

Barfield: But the nice thing is when you go to one of these larger programs you'll be exposed to all of it and then when you come out you can apply. The only advice I would see in the...cause we're gonna need nurses, and so we'll always be hiring as I can see it...would be to try to find something to do in the area you begin to like, like weekends or nursing assistant on weekends, or whatever, so you get known to the managers if you're going to stay in the area. That sort of thing, just so you'll have a heads up when the interviews come.

Mims: Well, I know a lot of people get into nursing because they are interested maybe in pediatrics, maybe in maternal health. Do you see a lot of that or have...have you seen that in the past where they come in and they're just so trapped that they want to do this specific thing?

Barfield: Um, hum, sure.

Mims: But they're exposed to everything?

Barfield: Oh yea,'re always going to be exposed to far as I know it's still that way.

Mims: A curious question was posed to one of the graduates this year as to what her plans were, and she stated something that she wanted to work in one of the of the, you know, critical care units, to make her skills really good because her main goal was to get to labor and delivery.

Barfield: Uh huh.

Mims: I thought that was odd. It seems like you would do it the other way around. That you would get your skills up in something like labor and delivery and then transfer over to one of the high tech units.

Barfield: Well...except that labor and delivery is so specific to the pregnant and delivering woman who could have any...any of those things go wrong that could happen, you know, we might have to send somebody to the unit. So you...she's...she's got it right. You would really want to know how to do all of that, plus you'd be...they are very similar because you're looking at maybe a one to two patient assignment day...I mean hourly.

Mims: Sure. Uh huh.

Barfield: And not having to balance it all out. So you get to do all those skills. You learn all the equipment and the technique. And you learn all that background. But then you can apply it to a pregnant woman or in a labor...laboring situation, so it would be the right way.

Mims: So very different than probably when you came through.

Barfield: Oh yea, entirely. I mean, we just didn't have any of this...any of this technology. We didn't even have units. The first unit, I mean, the first unit that I worked on was at Baptist Hospital in Winston Salem, I did work there part time just as...and it was a medical/surgical floor and I went in one day and they said, "Well, now you have to put these little needles in the patient's chest because we're doing telemetry." And this was on a regular floor and you did, you slid little needles in them. And I mean, you know, and now you have a whole unit, and techs, and doopdedoop. But any med/surg nurse had to learn to do all these things. And then because it got so complicated...

Mims: It is so complicated.

Barfield: ...we had to make choices.

Mims: So highly technical. As a matter of fact that whole issue about nurses having to carry their own insurance. You know, that's probably been a big change you've seen too, I mean...

Barfield: Right.

Mims: ...what do you advise students on...on that? Is it something that they...

Barfield: I don't...

Mims: ...that they can get themselves?

Barfield: I don't carry any insurance.

Mims: Okay.

Barfield: Um, and I went to a legal workshop within this past spring, it was here. And, you know, we're not the deep pockets.

Mims: No.

Barfield: We're not the deep pockets and I think that's been found out. That, you know, that although you can't say you''re not totally protected by the hospital...

Mims: Right.

Barfield: ...but you are an agent of the hospital. But you are responsible for everything you do. I mean, I am responsible for my actions and...and doing the standards of care. And I know that. but I don't carry my own insurance anymore. It was cancelled on me when I was at UNCW as an instructor. It was very difficult to get it at that time. I carried it with a local agent and...and then I got some, you know, through the ANA, but it...I just don't bother anymore.

Mims: Interesting, very interesting. Well, I think we're about ready to wrap. Thank you so much for all your information. It's been wonderful for us.

Barfield: Well I hope so. There's some names there...

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