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Interview with Robert Jones, April 24, 2007 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Interview with Robert Jones, April 24, 2007
April 24, 2007
Bob Jones entered the Army in 1952, during the Korean War, while a student at Rutgers majoring in business education. He was selected for Officer Candidate School, and eventually became a pilot. He moved to Wilmington in 1973 to assist in starting several Jr. ROTC groups in Brunswick County high schools. This led to setting up groups in Pender County and, at the request of Ty Rowell, two ROTC units at UNCW. Bob became Chair for the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools and later the facilitator for the state, and also served on the evaluation committee for New Hanover Country Schools. He was heavily involved in the Scholarship program for Burgaw Rotary, and continues on that path with his work with Military Officers Association of America, funding health and educational benefits. He is active in The Wounded Warrior Program, lobbies Congress for veterans' care and hospitals, and was a major force in the Downtown Rotary Iraqi Freedom effort.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Jones, Bob Interviewer: Jones, Carroll Date of Interview: 4/24/2007 Series: SENC Notables Length 90 minutes

Q: Today is April the 24th, I'm Carroll Jones with Jennifer Dail, with the Randall Library Oral History Project. We're speaking with Bob Jones in the Helen Hagan Room, in Special Collections. And I want to welcome Bob, he's an interesting guy, and kind of a funny fellow. Hi, Bob, how are you doing?

Bob Jones: Pretty good, so far.

Q: Good. (laughs) So far. Well, we're going to be easy on you. (laughs) I want to, first of all, I know you've been at-- where are you from originally? You're not a North Carolinian, are you?

Bob Jones: No, I'm a, I'm a Yankee from Long Island.

Q: Really?

Bob Jones: Out in the country part of Long Island, not the city part of Long Island.

Q: Do they have that anymore?

Bob Jones: Yeah, they have a little bit of it out there.

Q: Mmhm.

Bob Jones: But-- I used to hunt rabbits and quail in my backyard out there.

Q: Oh my gosh.

Bob Jones: No subways.

Q: No. So, tell us a little bit about growing up. If you had mentors, your family, that kind of thing. Things that may have shaped you to have the interests you did. You were in the military, so just why don't you, in your own-own speed.

Bob Jones: Well, I graduated from Mineola High School; incidentally, which is the first high school that-- first place Rosemary DePaolo taught at.

Q: Really?

Bob Jones: Right, at the same high school. And she lived about a mile from where I lived, on Long Island.

Q: Did you know her?

Bob Jones: No. She came a little after me.

Q: After you did, okay.

Bob Jones: But I was an athlete in high school, and right near the end of World War II, you know, it had just terminated when I graduated from high school.

Q: Mmhm.

Bob Jones: And I'd lost a brother in the --

Q: In the War?

Bob Jones: In the War, yeah, he's a marine pilot.

Q: Where was he?

Bob Jones: This is in the South Pacific.

Q: Mmhm.

Bob Jones: So I went into the service. I felt I was a little young for college yet, so --

Q: How old were you when you-- oh, were you just -- ?

Bob Jones: I was 17 at the time, so I was --

Q: Mmhm, okay.

Bob Jones: And after two years in the service, I came out and started right off into college, at Hofstra College at Long Island, and then transferred in with the RO-- with a football scholarship to Rutgers University.

Q: Oh, really?

Bob Jones: New Jersey, yeah. And I was in there for-- unfortunately I had signed up in the reserve, in the military, and when the Korean thing came --

Q: Ah.

Bob Jones: -- they called me back. And --

Q: Let me interrupt you. When you went to Rutgers, what did you major in?

Bob Jones: I was majoring in Business Administration.

Q: Mmhm. So go ahead.

Bob Jones: And well --

Q: But you got called, you got called back into service.

Bob Jones: I got recalled, right, in the service.

Q: Before you graduated, is that it?

Bob Jones: Right, right.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: And ended up going over to Korea, and then over to Germany, and I was young kid and next thing I knew I was a first sergeant, and really having a ball at the time over in Germany. You know, it was a --

Q: So you went from Korea --

Bob Jones: To Korea to Germany.

Q: To G-- where in Germany?

Bob Jones: I was at Stuttgart, Büblingen, by Stuttgart, right where the Mercedes Benz plant --

Q: Know it well.

Bob Jones: -- was located. And in fact I hung around with one of their engineers a lot. Never did own a Mercedes.

Q: They never gave you one, huh?

Bob Jones: No, they never gave me one.

Q: (laughs). When was this?

Bob Jones: This was, what, 1952-53. In that period.

Q: I was there then.

Bob Jones: You were?

Q: Mmhm.

Bob Jones: And I was then shipped off to --

Q: still in school.

Bob Jones: -- officer candidate school by my commander; he insisted that I got to OCS, you know, and -- which I did, Fort Sill, Oklahoma, which incidentally is where I met Yvonne.

Q: I was going -- Is she from Oklahoma?

Bob Jones: Yes, she's from a place called Sulfur, Okla-- You can detect it by the odor --

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: -- of the sulfur in the water.

Q: Good name for it.

Bob Jones: Yeah. So, that kicked me off on my military career, and I got into flight training, and had some very, very interesting assignments. And then I went back to Korea, it was the-- I was the pilot for Pak Chung Hee, who was president of Korea.

Q: Well, talk about that. You were his pilot?

Bob Jones: Yes.

Q: So, how did that work?

Bob Jones: Well, you know, he came out with his henchman, he was sort of gangster type, guys with machine guns and everything. And he was not, he was overthrown later on, but he flew in armed U.S. Army aircraft, and we supported him. And --

Q: Well, you flew the aircraft, right?

Bob Jones: No, I flew the aircraft, and he just sat in the back.

Q: What was his name? How do you spell it?

Bob Jones: Pak, P-A-K.

Q: P-A-K.

Bob Jones: Chung Hee, Chung, C-H-U-N-G, H-E-E.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: I don't know if he's still alive or not, but the --

Q: And he was President of South Korea.

Bob Jones: He was President of South Korea. He had replaced Syngman Yi.

Q: Oh, that's a name to -- yeah. So you were his-- so --

Bob Jones: Well, his pilot. I had, I flew other missions, I mean I just happened to be qualified in the particular aircraft he would fly in, that's all.

Q: Yeah, okay. Okay.

Bob Jones: And -- of course, that was an unaccompanied tour, Yvonne didn't get to go over there. And then it came-- you know, came back to the states and went through the routine career development courses, Army career courses, and command and general staff college at Fort Leavenworth. And then came Vietnam. And of course I was taken off, I was out, on staff duty, and sent with the 1st Calvary Division into Vietnam in 1965, and served a tour there.

Q: In Saigon?

Bob Jones: No, no, not --

Q: No?

Bob Jones: The 1st Calvary Division never got near Saigon.

Q: So you were --

Bob Jones: We were down in the bush, had a little bag with my toilet articles and a pancho liner, and that's, and a helicopter. And --

Q: Let me ask you something. Did you, did your division, your-- have special training for, with all, with all the different schools you'd gone to, just what you were speaking of, command school, general command school, etc., etc., were you trained to fight in the jungles? Or to live out of a knapsack in a-- that sort of thing? Or was this -- ?

Bob Jones: Well, I had done more of that training when I was an enlisted person, than I __________

Q: That's what I was thinking. Mmhm.

Bob Jones: No, as an officer, you got indoctrination and whatnot, you know, they told you about it, but -- Unless you went to one of the special schools, like the jungle warfare school, which I did not go to, no you didn't get any special training. You picked that up when you got over there, in country.

Q: (laughs). Yeah. Okay.

Bob Jones: And so I was not, you know, Vietnam was sort of a disaster --

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: -- for the, for the military, it was very political type operation, and those of us that went over with the first cab, who were all old time pilots -- for instance in my battery, I was an artillery rocket ship flyer -- the average flying time of the people we had in our unit was about 2,000 at flying hours.

Q: Ew.

Bob Jones: When I went over on my second tour, the average flying time was about 200 hours. Brand new kids right out of flight school.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

Bob Jones: Wobblies as we called 'em, young warrant officers. But we were very disenchanted, you know, when we went over there, we thought we were going to go over, do something, and then get out. And it didn't work out that way, as you know, it's history. __________ Like I say, we went over to Germany, had a great time in Germany for 18 months and back to --

Q: Where'd you live that time?

Bob Jones: Heidelberg.

Q: Oh, well, yeah.

Bob Jones: You know, upscale, upscale.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: And we enjoyed that very much.

Q: Now Yvonne went with you, right?

Bob Jones: Yeah, Yvonne went with me.

Q: And by that time, did you have kids?

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah, well we had all three of them, three boys.

Q: Mmhm, so they were in school in the American school system in Heidelberg?

Bob Jones: Right. They enjoyed that very, very much.

Q: Did they? Uh-huh.

Bob Jones: We had a great time over there. A lot of unique experiences.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: We had a, a maid, a woman that used to come in and take care of the, you know, clean the house and whatnot. Actually, her husband was a very wealthy owner of an electronics firm.

Q: Before the war.

Bob Jones: No. At that time.

Q: At that time?

Bob Jones: At that time. But she wanted children, she couldn't have children.

Q: Oh, my.

Bob Jones: So she would sign on with a family that had children.

Q: Oh my gosh.

Bob Jones: And ours was one of them, see. So, she came over, she brought more over in gifts, each time she'd come over once a week --

Q: Than you were paying her. (laughs)

Bob Jones: Than we were paying her, yeah. And then we got to be very close friends with she and her husband. Her husband was the, I guess they called it the Lord Marshall of the Fasching for Heidelberg.

Q: For the, for the, yeah, Fasching Fest.

Bob Jones: Fasching Fest.

Q: Right, any one of those.

Bob Jones: And in fact, Yvonne was the Queen.

Q: Seriously.

Bob Jones: Well, you know, the American Queen, at the Fasching thing, and Walter Marshall was the guy's name. And he's quite a character.

Q: That's a wild time.

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah, yeah. Very, very wild.

Q: Yeah. (laughs)

Bob Jones: Well, Mardi Gras in Germany.

Q: Right, it is, yeah.

Bob Jones: But we had just a wonderful time over there. And-- and of course, we had to go back to Vietnam and -- Yvonne would typically stay in, I had a sister that lived in Williamsburg, she's now deceased. And Yvonne would usually stay in Williamsburg __________

Q: Well, that's a place to stay.

Bob Jones: Yeah. And so she, we-- in fact, when we retired, up at Fort Monroe, we had thought of staying at Williamsburg, but --

Q: Mmhm, a lot of people have retired there.

Bob Jones: But I, I had a friend who was an Army aviator also, who was from Shallotte. A place I had never heard of, you know? And he said "It's near a place called Wilmington." I said, "Oh, in Delaware?"

Q: (laughs) Of course.

Bob Jones: "No, in North Carolina." "Well, I never heard of that."

Q: 'Course you haven't.

Bob Jones: __________ he asked me, he said, "Will you come down for one year?"

Q: He lived here?

Bob Jones: He's originally from Shallotte.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: He was retiring the same time I was from the military.

Q: Right, okay.

Bob Jones: And he said, "Will you come down with me for one year and help me establish these junior ROTC units?"

Q: Oh.

Bob Jones: In a place called Brunswick County. I said, "Well -- " I didn't even know what a junior ROTC unit was. I knew senior ROTC. So I agreed to do that, enticed by a little bonus, and at that time, Brunswick County had fell into a lot of money, because --

Q: Now when was this about?

Bob Jones: This was in 1973.

Q: Hm.

Bob Jones: But --

Q: So that's before I-40.

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: Long before I-40.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: In fact, we were just working on 17. 17 was a two-laner all the way.

Q: Oh, I remember that. (laughs)

Bob Jones: But they were working on that. And a bunch of the property, like I said, Odell Williamson owned. You know, it was hitherto classified as "forest," although it was on the beach.

Q: Right. (laughs)

Bob Jones: A new county manager, his, who with the odd name of Jerry Lewis --

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: Came into Brunswick County and he ended up classifying that as beachfront property, so the money rolled in. Brunswick County built three new high schools -- North Brunswick, West Brunswick, South Brunswick -- and decided they wanted to get into this ROTC thing. This is the same time integration was starting.

Q: Now they had Lincoln High School, which was the one for the blacks at that time.

Bob Jones: Right. But the new high schools were going to be equal --

Q: For ROTC.

Bob Jones: Yeah, were integrated. And as it happened, I had happened, along the way, had picked up a degree from Hampton Institute, now Hampton University, which is one of the historic black schools.

Q: In Williamsburg, outside of Williamsburg.

Bob Jones: Hampton, Hampton, Virginia.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: But they wanted me in the worst way to stay there, because of the, he said, "Can't you get some of these stickers that you put on the back of your car," you know, "Hampton Institute" and whatnot.

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: And 'cause everybody was very, very concerned about what, you know, how this integration was going to go, or not. And as it was, it really wasn't that big a problem. The biggest --

Q: At that time. This time, the biggest hurdle had been overcome.

Bob Jones: Yeah, right. And the problem was never with the students, it was with the parents.

Q: Oh, yeah, always.

Bob Jones: But also at that time in ROTC for the first time they brought females into ROTC. So we had integration and females entering into ROTC, 1973, first time. And they gave them some little pretty skirts that they, the girls just absolutely detested.

Q: (laughs) Of course.

Bob Jones: You know.

Q: They weren't short enough. (laughs)

Bob Jones: Well, no, they were little plaid --

Q: Oh, really?

Bob Jones: Yeah, yeah. It looked like sort of a parochial type school.

Q: Mmhm. The parents probably loved it.

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah.

Q: Unless their daughter wanted to be a beauty queen, then you know.

Bob Jones: Yeah. At any rate, I got into education, and I sort of liked it. And --

Q: That was in the '70s.

Bob Jones: That was '73, right, that's when we came down here. And I had really only intended to stay here a few years, and go back to Virginia. Yvonne wanted to be up in Virginia, because she had a lot of art connections back there.

Q: Sure.

Bob Jones: But for the first time in many, many years, I was stable. You know, normally after 18 months someplace, we were picking up and moving. And the typical way it would go, was that I would come home one night, "I'm on the advance party, I'm leaving tomorrow. Contact the movers and get the three kids out of school and get 'em transferred and I'll be back to see you in, you know, another month or so."

Q: Let me ask you something that always fascinates me, to do what you've just described, which has happened to thousands and thousands of families in the military. Did you and Yvonne ever develop the attitude, particularly with children, that you were short timers? Or did you figure, as some do, this is home for now, I'm going to dive in and become useful and become part of the community, and etc., etc.? And also the second part is, what effect do you think it had on the kids?

Bob Jones: Well, I think it was enriching to the kids, really.

Q: They didn't mind it.

Bob Jones: They didn't mind it. They adjusted very readily, and about moving to a new place, you know. And this involved even some TDY, which were only like for six months. We picked the whole family up and went --

Q: The schools and such.

Bob Jones: Yeah, to those things. And then, so I think they benefited from it. I know some children from other families were traumatized by it. Mine were, were not. And largely due to Yvonne, I think. We had a very stable family, and she'd --

Q: That's-that's good.

Bob Jones: -- she really did a fantastic job.

Q: She probably made it interesting for them--

Bob Jones: Yeah.

Q: -- all the new things they could do.

Bob Jones: And the military is not for everyone, you know. I always, when I taught in ROTC, I would tell people that are going in the military and getting married, I said, "You'd better find out whether this young lady is going to adjust to that type life," you know, as a nomad.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: But --

Q: Lot of learning experiences.

Bob Jones: Yeah.

Q: Did you ever own a home during all this period?

Bob Jones: No. The first home I owned was here in Wilmington.

Q: Right here.

Bob Jones: In Wilmington, right.

Q: The one you built?

Bob Jones: No, not the one I built, but the early on one, over in Long Leaf Road.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: Saber Drive and everything. And I remember just scraping together the funds, because that thing cost a whopping $37,000.

Q: (laughs). So that must've been, what, mid-60s?

Bob Jones: No that was '70s, late 70's, yeah.

Q: Was it? Oh, okay.

Bob Jones: And I sold it for I guess around $100,000, you know, when I sold it a few years later, when we built the home that we're in now.

Q: Yeah, yeah.

Bob Jones: But you know, prices do change. Of course, the road here, I remember driving past University when we came into town, and didn't know anything about the town, and it had a sign up said, "Wilmington College."

Q: I was going to ask you, it had to have been at that time.

Bob Jones: __________, they had an old sign, they hadn't taken it down yet, you know.

Q: Yes, yeah.

Bob Jones: But it was already University, UNCW.

Q: No, this was in the '70s or '60s.

Bob Jones: '70s.

Q: Yeah, okay, yeah, 'cause it changed over in the '60s.

Bob Jones: So -- and you know, the family's relatively small. One of the biggest complaints was, at that time, was there's just no place to shop, you know. I guess they were just building Long Leaf Mall. You know, which was the first mall here in town.

Q: That's right. Well there was, Hanover Center was there.

Bob Jones: Well, Hanover Center, but it wasn't--

Q: And there was nothing there but a Penny's or something, or Sears.

Bob Jones: Yeah, it was-- Well, Sears Roe-- Sears Roebuck was there.

Q: Sears.

Bob Jones: And a couple of other stores.

Q: And Rose's Department Store. (laughs)

Bob Jones: Yeah, Rose's, yeah.

Q: Unless you went down to Front Street, they still had the Wonder Shop and the Julia...

Bob Jones: Yeah, that's right.

Q: And something, Sue Ann's Shoes.

Bob Jones: Yeah, Sue Ann's Shoes, I always remember that.

Q: Yeah, so you practically qualify as natives here.

Bob Jones: Well, pretty close, you know. You know, I would sell --

Q: By today's environment.

Bob Jones: I remember one night, later, was up in Burgaw, John Von Olsen, you know, from there --

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: John always used to, he'd give me the Yankee thing, you know, and I always told John, "John, you're a Wilming-- you're a Wilmingtonian by chance, I'm a Wilmingtonian by choice."

Q: Choice, yes.

Bob Jones: I said, so we're two different breeds here, you know.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: You had no, nothing to do with your being in Wilmington, just happenstance.

Q: Now, did you never live in Burgaw? Because --

Bob Jones: No, I never lived in Burgaw.

Q: How did you happen to become a part --

Bob Jones: Well --

Q: -- of the Rotary?

Bob Jones: To go back to the ROTC, we set up the three schools in Brunswick County, and I stayed at South Brunswick with new principal Mark Owens, and after I was there for about three or four years, I had a visitor from up in Burgaw, Fred -- Rick Denning [ph?] was the new principal at New Burgaw High School, or the new Pender High School. And he wanted to know if I would come up there and help him establish an ROTC, and give him some advice. And so I did. But I got up there and Doug James was the superintendent at the time, and they gave me a big selly [ph?], told me all these things they were going to build: a new ROTC building, and a -- which they did. And whatnot, and you know, dangled a lot of things in front of me. And I sort of was enchanted by starting anew. I liked organizing something and planning it right from scratch, as we did in Brunswick County. So, I jumped at it, and even took a cut in pay to go up there. And then became part of Burgaw, you know. And --

Q: And Yvonne and the family lived here.

Bob Jones: We lived here, commuted up, and we didn't have I-40 either, then, __________

Q: No, I know.

Bob Jones: 117, you know.

Q: 117.

Bob Jones: Or the back way, up on 421. And I think he asked me, he said "Are you going to move up to Burgaw?" I said, "No." I said, "I'm also reminded of when I went and started in Brunswick County, I had come down early, lived in Holden Beach with Davy Stanley, we set up the units there, and Yvonne was still up at Fort Monroe. They allowed us to stay there 'til the kids finished school. So Yvonne came down for the first time, and I was going to show her.

Q: Took a look at Holden (laughs) I can just imagine.

Bob Jones: So we drove across the bridge, you know, and drove down 133, now Horton Plantation. And at that time, now, in Southport, there are only two restaurants. One was where you stood up and ate, and the other one was in the drugstore. And --

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: So, we drove by where the Board of Education was, which was World War II barracks, you know. And Yvonne said, "What's that?" I said, "That's the Board of Education, that's where my bosses live."

Q: Oh, she must've (laughs)

Bob Jones: And so, she had looked at a map, and saw that, you know, Southport, said, "Looks, probably a very arty little town," you know, and everything, well it, they didn't even have hamburger place, in Southport at that time.

Q: Mmhm, right.

Bob Jones: So any rate --

Q: Did they have the ferry at that time?

Bob Jones: They had the ferry, right, right.

Q: They did?

Bob Jones: But we drove down 133. Anyway, we were coming back, and I told, as well, Ralph King, who was the superintendent, and was very interested in me living in Brunswick County. And they had just started a development just across the bridge there by Belleville, I can't think of a --

Q: Right, __________.

Bob Jones: -- they're fairly nice homes there. And he mentioned those, and he said that he could work a pretty good deal for me there, he knew some people. So as we crossed the bridge, Yvonne looked, she said, "That's the last time I'm crossing that bridge."

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: She said, "If you're -- "

Q: There were people from Wilmington, natives, that used to say that. (laughs)

Bob Jones: And she said, "I, if you elect to go to Brunswick County, please come out and visit me on the weekends."

Q: Sounds like her. (laughs)

Bob Jones: So, that was the end of my Brunswick Co-- well, I enjoyed Brunswick County, and still very close with a lot of people there.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: But -- and a lot of stu-- one of my former students just became the director of instruction for Brunswick County Community College.

Q: Which is growing.

Bob Jones: Yeah. Velda Jenkins. She was Velda Bellamy then, and -- any rate, I was in ROTC up at Vander [ph?], you know, and there for 20 years.

Q: Really?

Bob Jones: Yeah. And it was, actually it was --

Q: Well, you retired young, from the military.

Bob Jones: From the military, I don't know. I hadn't been able to keep track. I can't even keep track of my children's birthdays, you know, and they -- I mean, how old they are. I know their birthdays.

Q: I was just going to ask you the ages of your children.

Bob Jones: I wish you wouldn't, because they --

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: One's 1955, the computer; one 1959 and one 1962.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: The '62 one graduated from this school. Well, my, two of them graduated from UNCW. And I also took quite a few hours in administration and supervision here. Never did complete it, mostly because I had a big falling out with Harold Hulon [ph?] and --

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: (laughs). Long time ago.

Q: Did you tell me, or am I just thinking of somebody else, that you had from time to time been an adjunct professor and taught here?

Bob Jones: When they started, when we started the ROTC unit, well back up a little bit.

Q: Yeah, go ahead, and I don't want to interrupt you.

Bob Jones: We were, had General Adams, who was head of ROTC for the eastern part of the United States, as my guest speaker. I had known him way back when, I was a lieutenant and he was a captain. Up at Colorado Springs, where Yvonne and I were, stayed and -- he married one of the general's daughters and everything. And any rate, he came down to the speaker. So when he said to me, when I arrived on the platform, it was a night graduation, he said, "I would like to get an ROTC unit in UNCW. What do I need to do?" I said, "Well, you need to come down and bring that star down here and talk to Dr. Wagoner." I said, "Ty Rolling had already been coordinating with me, we've, sort of laying the groundwork to get them ROTC. So any rate, we did that, I remember General Adams came down, we spoke to the faculty senate, you know, and I was, it was strange because that was subsequent to Vietnam, you know, and there's some bad taste --

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: -- in the mouths of a lot of people. And I watched these people file in, and I noticed a lot of them with pony tails --

Q: Oh, yeah.

Bob Jones: -- you know, earrings, and I said, "Oh."

Q: Well, today they have dreadlocks and other things.

Bob Jones: Yeah, well I said, well this --

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: -- is not the greatest audience in the world, but General Adams, very charismatic person, spoke and he brought in a couple of students, who had, I mean former students of ROT-- senior ROTC, who attributed their success in whatever they were doing to their leadership training. Well, any rate, he pushed the issue, he said, "Right now," he said, "I would like to get a vote, show of hands in here, how many people here would like to have ROTC?" You know, this was like --

Q: Really?

Bob Jones: -- not programmed. And he had them enthralled, and they all, all these guys jumped up, the guys, ponytails and whatnot. You know. Said, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes."

Q: Well, now let me ask you something. At that time, being in ROTC, did you get sort of a break on tuition?

Bob Jones: No.

Q: No.

Bob Jones: Not on tuition, you didn't, but you would, your last two years of ROTC, the government subsidized you, gave you money, gave you money.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: So you got that.

Q: It had to be something.

Bob Jones: And plus we had a lot of good scholarship programs for two-year scholarships, three-year scholarships and four-year scholarships.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: So there was, you know, plenty of this, you know. But at any rate I digress from how did I, you said, was I an adjunct professor at, not really. The young man who we got to start the unit here, his name was Gordon MacRae, which was a __________ because of the MacRae family.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: They took to him right away and passed out a little bit of money where it helped, in getting the unit started.

Q: And of course Hugh is quite an advocate of the military.

Bob Jones: Oh, yes, right. So any rate, Gordon's wife was in the last stages of pregnancy up at Fort Bragg, so she stayed up there, and Gordon went up to get her and picked her up from the hospital, and en route home a drunken driver, female, cracked into the-- and severely injured the baby. Everything, and Gordon was, you know, beside himself. Well, they had no, he was the only instructor here.

Q: But they survived.

Bob Jones: Yeah, they survived. The child, the last I knew, the child had pretty much overcome the prob--

Q: Good.

Bob Jones: But any rate, I filled in for Gordon here, even though I was, you know, still teaching at the school here. But I'd come down and do some classes and whatnot, just temporarily until they brought somebody down from Campbell University down for that. Funny part that Gordon, here recently, I had a guy come by my house, and said, one of my neighbors was retired Secret Service, Jerry Greenwood, and this guy came by, said, "I'm running a security check on a person that said he knew you a long time ago, his name is Gordon MacRae."

Q: Oh.

Bob Jones: He said, "He's applied for some kind of job that required a security clearance." You know, he's out of the service, he retired, and I didn't, lost contact competely. But the unit was doing well here, went through a lot of growing pains, whatnot. Initially, they had to run it as a satellite unit from UNCW, I mean, from Campbell University. Well, that was always a tough pill to swallow, that the boss was at Campbell, for here, you know, 'til they got, as I say, own individual unit.

Q: Tell us a little bit about what is involved in establishing an ROTC unit on a university, at a university.

Bob Jones: Well, at the university, it has to be, you know, a commitment for the university to integrate it as part of its regular curriculum, you know. And --

Q: Mmhm. Do you apply through, I'm thinking of the different branches of the service --

Bob Jones: Well, it's --

Q: -- Army, Navy, whatever.

Bob Jones: Right, you, you connect the application to it, and they're not easy to come by, you see, because it involves a lot of commitment from the particular service. And there're only so many that they initiate each year. And as funding goes, you know, they look at is as an investment, they want to see that they're going to get a certain number of officers. And that there's going to be a, you know, flow of people into the program at the school. So, it's not an easy thing to get.

Q: Now that's where you came in?

Bob Jones: Yeah, well --

Q: You went to fill in --

Bob Jones: -- Ty Rolling, you know, is my neighbor, and Ty and I always talked, Ty was very big in the Reserve, he still is, very important person in the Reserve, Army Reserve. So, we worked together and we manipulated, we got General Adams to come down here, and did all kinds of trickery and whatnot, and got the unit started. And then --

Q: So did you have to set up the, an itinerary or a program, for instruction for marching, for uniforms, for all this sort of thing?

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah, well that was Gordon MacRae and his --

Q: He did it.

Bob Jones: -- his group, you know, they-they came in to do that. And we supported them every possible way we could.

Q: Yeah, okay.

Bob Jones: And like for things that he couldn't get immediately, I provided them from the school, 'cause I had already established accounts at Fort Bragg for --

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: -- different things, you know.

Q: Alright.

Bob Jones: But -- but, as they drew down, you know, it was getting, they, during the Clinton years and even before that, they started drawing down on the armed forces. So it was getting to the point where students graduating from college, with a ROTC degree, when normally I would be offered a commission and go right on active duty; they weren't able to do that. They weren't even able to get 'em a commission in the National Guard, they'd put 'em in inactive reserve. Well, this was very hard, especially on the females.

Q: Sure.

Bob Jones: Had looked forward to being on active duty, you know, and when it came to graduation, the, I mean the last graduation class here, was right here in the library.

Q: What year was that?

Bob Jones: Oh, gee.

Q: Well, okay.

Bob Jones: I wish you wouldn't (laughs) embarrassing.

Q: (laughs). Okay, that's alright.

Bob Jones: But any rate, in fact General Adams had come down for that, he was already retired, and is working as a banker, up in Greensboro by then. I think we, they had -- nine graduating. And none of them getting active duty, although they were very, very fully qualified.

Q: Is this when you kind of disbanded, or -- ?

Bob Jones: Well, no, actually -- what year did Dr. Leutze come here?

Q: It was mid-90s, early '90s?

Bob Jones: That was the year it disbanded.

Q: It's about '93, something like that.

Bob Jones: Actually, he was en route here when they got the word, and LeRoy Hannah was the professor of military science here at the time.

Q: Mmhm. That would not have been Leutze's specialty anyway.

Bob Jones: Well-- well, see the thing is, he was very well connected with Colin Powell. And Colin Powell was a big proponent of ROTC. In fact, when Colin Powell was retiring as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, he was asked, they ask him, "What can we do for you, Colin? What can, you know, what would you like as a going away gift?"

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: And he said, "I would like you to establish at least about three or 400 more high school ROTC units. He was a big advocate of ROTC. He claims that was what, you know, made, took him from nothing to something. But yeah, we thought maybe if Dr. Leutze had some influence, he could have forestalled it but, that wasn't to be.

Q: That wasn't his interest, no.

Bob Jones: Well, he didn't know that, it was already fait accompli when he got here.

Q: Right, mmhm.

Bob Jones: What was his school he came from?

Q: I've forgotten.

Bob Jones: I've forgotten, __________. Two names that is hyphenated.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: But, then that was the end of ROTC here.

Q: Mmhm. So that left you unemployed, so to speak?

Bob Jones: No, no, no, I was, I was still employed.

Q: Oh, you were still with Burgaw.

Bob Jones: I was at the high schools, yeah I was at the high schools. See and -- the people who teach ROTC at the colleges are active duty military.

Q: This is what I've noticed.

Bob Jones: Yeah, well they have to be, that's by law. And those that teach in the high school have to be retired.

Q: Military.

Bob Jones: Military.

Q: Mmhm.

Bob Jones: With a degree, I mean, they have to have a degree at that-- So, although we've, you know, a couple times like I helped out here, and a couple times I even helped out at some of the high schools, but that's the way that --

Q: Mmhm, and you enjoyed that.

Bob Jones: Well, I enjoyed it. It was very rewarding. And that's, I guess, the biggest reward I get is running into former students who are very successful.

Q: Really?

Bob Jones: You know, the day at the Azalea Parade, 'cause I'm up on the judge's stand, 'cause I'll be judging the marching units, you know. And judge Facing, Jimmy Facing, he's one of my former students, you know.

Q: Really.

Bob Jones: So he came on, you know, with his daughter, who was a very accomplished violinist, won the state award for the state, and came in second or third for South Carolina. But any rate, for him to come up, bring her up, and say, "This is the man I'm always talking about."

Q: Oh.

Bob Jones: "The one that taught me, taught me leadership," you know, this and that. And -- well, at our last meeting, which is at the Blue Water Grill, we had David Stallman [ph?], local author, was the speaker, and outside Matt Hews [ph?], you know.

Q: Yeah, I know Matt.

Bob Jones: He was standing there. And this big Cadillac pulls up and this tall, very attractive black lady jumps out, you know, comes in, and said, runs over, "Are you Colonel-- are your Colonel Jones?" I say, "Yes, I -- " she "I'm Mary Marshall, I was your S-1 22 years ago."

Q: (laughs) Oh, gosh.

Bob Jones: At the Pender High School, and all these people standing there, you know, and Jack Fadner [ph?] and a few others, and she said, "This is the man that taught me leadership." She said, "I'm vice president of Sun Trust Bank in Georgia, right now."

Q: That's very good.

Bob Jones: And you know, those things, so worth their weight in gold.

Q: Sure.

Bob Jones: You know, you can't - Yvonne said, "Well, you like those ego trips, you know?"

Q: Well, listen, there's nothing wrong with taking a look at a product, or a project, whether it's a human being or what, and saying it's been successful, and I helped do that. You know, you feel like you've done something.

Bob Jones: Yeah, well that's, you know, I-I enjoyed education. One thing I, when we've, I mentioned about integration, girls in ROTC, at Brunswick County they were going for their initial accreditation by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, three schools. Well, I sat through a number of briefings, I guess you'd call 'em, organizational meetings, lasting three and four hours, after school, you know, where people were just back and forth, back and forth, nothing getting accomplished. I said, "Lord," I said, you know, "Somebody's, we're wasting a lot of time here," and so Mark Owens, who was principal, he said, "Well, Carl [ph?] would you be willing to chair this?" I said, "Well, I certainly would, if you allow me to decide when we're going to have meetings." And for the rest of that year, we only had two meetings. All the rest was done by mailbox time thing, you know, no need to tie up 40 or 50 people three days a week for four hours each of those days, you know. And so I enjoyed organizing and getting this thing ready, and then I helped the other two schools, too. I wrote the philosophies for all three of the Brunswick County Schools, and -- but see, military people have had the advantage of having been trained in leadership --

Q: Yeah, that's what ultimately it's about.

Bob Jones: -- it's an organized __________. In education, the teacher, a virtual prisoner of that classroom, it's one of the toughest jobs in the world, you know. Every --

Q: So we're finding out, our granddaughter is just finishing her first year of teaching.

Bob Jones: Every 45 minutes a bell rings and in comes --

Q: Well, it's not just that, it's what you can and cannot do.

Bob Jones: Yeah, and 40 minutes, 45 new people with all kinds of problems come into your room, you know? (laughs)

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: And-- and you get a, maybe, a lunch group and maybe one period, you know. And you got to do all this planning and whatnot at home --

Q: Now by this time, you're kids are pretty well grown, right?

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Q: But did you ever look at them, when-when you were dealing with a lot of these young fellows and girls, teenagers and so forth, which is a very difficult period, I think, in anybody's life, and have either a little more respect, or have gone, "Oh, I should've done this," you know. (laughs) Or I didn't do that.

Bob Jones: Now, all three of my sons --

Q: Do you have bo-- you have sons?

Bob Jones: Yeah, all three sons.

Q: Three s- are boys.

Bob Jones: And they were all in ROTC.

Q: Were they?

Bob Jones: Yeah. By their own choice now, I didn't --

Q: Did anyone go into --

Bob Jones: They all went in the service.

Q: They did.

Bob Jones: For one tour. They all hated it.

Q: Oh, okay. (laughs)

Bob Jones: (laughs). And even though, you know, my oldest son, David, he's up in Toronto, he had a very difficult job. He was the photographer in Garmisch, you know the resort area in Germany.

Q: Yeah. We spent a couple of winters there.

Bob Jones: Yeah, well you know, tough job. He had a --

Q: Gee, that is really bad. (laughs)

Bob Jones: Really tough.

Q: Summer isn't bad, either. (laughs)

Bob Jones: In order to give him an assignment, they had to put him on the ski patrol.

Q: Now, he was a photographer for who?

Bob Jones: The United States Army.

Q: Okay. Yeah. For a newspaper or just PR?

Bob Jones: For the Stars and Stripes.

Q: The Stars and Stripes.

Bob Jones: Yeah.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: And you know, really -- running around getting --

Q: So he could --

Bob Jones: -- grin and grip type things, you know.

Q: Yeah, you know, it's kind of tough.

Bob Jones: Yeah.

Q: __________.

Bob Jones: Real hardship, you know.

Q: Yeah. (laughs)

Bob Jones: And my number two son, he was -- what do you call it, a legal clerk, up at Fort Bragg. He was, went in the service, he said he wanted to go Germany, this place. Well, he ends up stuck at Fort Bragg. His boss at Fort Bragg, the captain that was in charge of 'em, one of my former students from South Brunswick --

Q: Oh, really.

Bob Jones: Randy Wollman [ph?], yeah.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: Was his boss up there. And so he spent his entire tour --

Q: At Fort Bragg.

Bob Jones: -- at Fort Bragg, yeah.

Q: Practically home.

Bob Jones: Yeah, practically home.

Q: And how about son number three?

Bob Jones: Son number three, he went, he was an aircraft mechanic, was down in, went to Panama, and everything. But he was glad to get out, you know.

Q: Now are all these, none of 'em live here, do they? Or do they?

Bob Jones: Well, the youngest one, Jeff, is a travel nurse, so he travels around, and at the present time he's here in Wilmington. And he's married to a young girl from Brazil. And she's employed here with a, a group, like a, I guess they work on the psychiatric cases. And he's a psychiatric nurse.

Q: Well, that's a good mix.

Bob Jones: Yeah. So --

Q: Well, at least he's married.

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Q: (laughs). Every mother wants their kid to get married. (laughs)

Bob Jones: And she's a lovely person, they really --

Q: That's nice. Well, as a matter of fact, I'd hoped to meet her the other night, but didn't have an opportunity to.

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah, that's --

Q: I think you mentioned --

Bob Jones: Yeah, yeah, she was there. Andreysa [ph?].

Q: Mmhm.

Bob Jones: Quite a character.

Q: Yeah. Well, so they all turned out well, nobody's in jail.

Bob Jones: Yeah, well, they all, no, that's right, yeah.

Q: (laughs) Yes.

Bob Jones: Well, that's, you know, they always ask about ROTC. You know, they said, "You had some great people at -- instructor up there for Brunswick, up at -- __________ called me the other night, wanted me to come to their military ball, which I can't because I've got another commitment, but he was saying all these, "So many people have come by here," you know, that are so successful, and this and that. "And they, from the days when, you know, when you were here, and Sergeant Lomax," who is now deceased, "and they always ask about you" and this and that. You know, and so forth. And he said, "It's just a wonderful thing." I said, "Well, there are a few that don't come by, too. I can think of two that are still in jail."

Q: (laughs)

Bob Jones: You know (laughs) so you got a mix, you know. __________

Q: __________ this forward just a little bit, you decided to stay, either you bought a house, you moved into it, and then I guess you really, you and Yvonne really started to put down roots, so you built a place, right?

Bob Jones: Right.

Q: And you've been, the both of you have been, involved in many things in this community, Southeastern North Carolina, New Hanover County, Wilmington, whatever. Talk a little bit about how you decided to stay here, putting down roots, Thalian Hall, what it was like at that time. I'm sure that there was an awful lot of open space then. And what kind of involvements were you involved -- did you take part, besides being president of the Burgaw Rotary. (laughs)

Bob Jones: Right.

Q: And how did that happen? Because you were up there, right?

Bob Jones: Yeah, you know.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: And I was always heavily involved in Rotary up there, we ran, we had a big scholarship program.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: And we ran, we, at the great Burghall Spring Fest, up there by the old courthouse, you know. We sold hot dogs, or I shouldn't say-- sausages, from JB Lewis Sausage Farm. Everybody, all the members of the group, you know, contributed __________. We used to collect, I guess maybe $10,000 or so for scholarship money.

Q: Mmhm, that's good.

Bob Jones: And then we ran, the rotary runs a couple of leadership courses.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: And we used to send people to that, and it's just something, you know, it's a volunteer type organization.

Q: Right. Well, that's what I'm getting at, the many different, you've been a volunteer for a lot of organizations.

Bob Jones: Well, you know, volunteer, like Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, I chaired that for Brunswick County for their initial accreditation. When I got to Burgaw, that was a new school, too, see? So, I ended up chairing it for Pender High School.

Q: So this is the Southern Association --

Bob Jones: -- of Colleges and Schools. That's the ultimate accreditation --

Q: Of Colleges, of Colleges --

Bob Jones: And Schools, right.

Q: They don't --

Bob Jones: They accredit UNCW, as well, too.

Q: Oh, okay. Okay.

Bob Jones: And they, they're regional, like the Southern is for the southeastern United States.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: You've got a similar organization for northeast and __________.

Q: So were you, did this entail being a board member, or were you on a --

Bob Jones: Well, no, this, at each school, you get a group together, and it organized here, you got certain standards to meet. The Southern Association puts out all these booklets. And everything, in communication, in teaching, in qualifications of teachers, how many people have masters degrees, how each program works. There's a very, very detailed analysis of the potential for success --

Q: I understand, I see occasionally certain schools that were startups years ago, private schools or whatever, that very proudly announce that they are members of -- an accredit --

Bob Jones: Oh, yeah, accredited by the Southern Association.

Q: Right, mmhm.

Bob Jones: That is, there's no other competitor, that is the place. And -- then, you get initial accreditation. At that time, they bring in teams from all over, experts in these different areas, and they evaluate you, and spend about three or four days at the school, go over it with a fine-tooth comb, and you have whole reams of paperwork that you got to, you know, attest to how many people do this, do that, or not. And demonstrate how you have established communication between the school and the families; within the school, teachers and administrators, every facet of education that you can imagine, a very, very involved process. And if the school satisfies the committee, they become accredited. Not all schools become accredited; many schools say, "Well, you've got so many shortcomings, you know, we'll try again next year or a few years -- "

Q: You know, listening to you, I'm surprised that at one time or another you never ran for school board.

Bob Jones: Well, I would, I have been offered principals' jobs, the most thankless job in the world, I would never want it. Everybody's barking at your heels, so that's --

Q: They burn out, they burn out.

Bob Jones: I had the most enviable position of all, as an ROTC instructor, as Ro Sawyer [ph?], who's now deceased, used to say, "A school within the school." You've got your own little empire, that you're thing is so popular that we don't dare cross your path, you know. And you can pretty much dictate what you want. You get support from the military, you get support from the families. I remember when, up in Pender County, they were going to cut the budget one year, at the schools. So they had a big town meeting at the old courthouse, and superintendent got up there as well. "I realize you're not going to be able to give us this money, so unfortunately, we're going to have to drop ROTC." He had no intention of dropping ROTC, but when he said that, the place went aflame, you know?

Q: Sure.

Bob Jones: And immediately --

Q: Something was done.

Bob Jones: -- there were, yeah.

Q: Sure.

Bob Jones: All the sudden they found the money. You know, for it, because it was that popular. And-and particularly among blacks. It was a big thing. ROTC at the high schools always attracted the most talented blacks, to its members.

Q: Sure.

Bob Jones: But accreditation, I ended up in that accreditation business, I've been involved in so many different places, that I finally became a consultant, or what they call, they call it a facilitator.

Q: You became a facilitator.

Bob Jones: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: And they train, you know, I went on training courses and whatnot.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: And strange part, the other guy who's the chief facilitator for the state, his name was Bob Jones, also.

Q: Oh, really?

Bob Jones: (laughs). And incidentally, there are eight Bob Jones's in Wilmington, too.

Q: Huh. Well --

Bob Jones: And two Colonel Bob Jones's.

Q: Have you met them?

Bob Jones: No, a couple of 'em, I have. One time I went into a drugstore, and the pharmacist, you know --

Q: Was Jones. (laughs)

Bob Jones: He looked at me.

Q: Date of birth is -- that's why they ask it, I guess. Uh-huh.

Bob Jones: And -- and then the guy who was the last commander at Fort Fisher, __________ he's Bob Jones.

Q: I'll be darned.

Bob Jones: And made, and made Lieutenant Colonel just before he retired, I guess. So.

Q: So --

Bob Jones: So as a facilitator, I was assigned different schools. This is all pro-bono, I mean --

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: You don't -- the only thing they give you is transportation money, which is with a cap of $300, which wouldn't go far today.

Q: (laughs). Not today.

Bob Jones: But I did, I was facilitator for North Brunswick High School. And was this, when they were doing a reaccreditation, and I was facilitator for South Brunswick High School. What you do as a facilitator, you help them organize their effort to attain accreditation. So then you go down and counsel with them, you know, show 'em what-- what to do, what they need to do, what their shortcomings are, and what their strong points are. And so I enjoy doing that. And you get to work with some very talented people, and so --

Q: I imagine.

Bob Jones: Yeah. They usually give you the best of the school. And then, when they, then I also would join an accreditation team that would go to evaluate a school. For instance, the last time that Hanover was evaluated, I was part of the accreditation team.

Q: Oh, really?

Bob Jones: Yeah.

Q: Okay.

Bob Jones: That's been -- they usually do that evaluation every few years.

Q: Let me ask you something -- are you familiar, if you're d-- if you were doing that, and perhaps still are, what do you think of education today, in high schools, compared to when your kids were going through? Or something like that. Do you think anything's missing? Do you think that -- you know, there's a whole, there's a whole bunch of subjects and topics that really are skimmed over, and I've been told, "Well, that's because there's so much to learn." But reading material, how about classics, how about history and how about all these things that --

Bob Jones: Well --

Q: -- you and I were, and my husband and your wife --

Bob Jones: You know, we went to school --

Q: And they obsessed over certain ways.

Bob Jones: The only, how many, you didn't have the widespread number of courses. You know.

Q: Well, they were, they were prescribed for you, you had only one or two electives.

Bob Jones: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, you didn't have a whole bunch of electives to go at. There are a lot of different things. I'm thinking of math, in particular.

Q: Uh-huh.

Bob Jones: Kids today --

Q: They learn a completely different way. I'm lost.

Bob Jones: Well, it's not only a completely different way, it's far more advanced than it was.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: Calculus. When we were in, we didn't have any calculus.

Q: Well, you could have calculus, if you got good grades.

Bob Jones: Yeah, on a special project, type thing, yeah. But now it's a routine type thing. And you, it's hard to compare, you know, education, let's say --

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: -- is it better today, than it was then, or is it -- ?

Q: Mmhm. Well, just taking a look, for example, in New Hanover County -- well, no, actually, Brunswick and Pender, too. The newspaper every year runs those lists of those who have reached their goal as far as the "No Child Left Behind," or have reached certain goals. And it seems that down here in southeastern North Carolina, we don't fare too well compared to parts of the state or parts of the country. And you just mentioned this about the evaluation for New Hanover High School, as an example, and I think I read, maybe this morning or yesterday, how the percentage of dropouts, even in the senior year, that may be economically driven, I don't know.

Bob Jones: Well, a lot of that's economic.

Q: Is that what you feel?

Bob Jones: That's actually -- dropouts, yeah. And well, one big thing I think that, one of the biggest differences that you see, today, is the family structure, see.

Q: Yeah.

Bob Jones: Mmhm.

Q: What's left of it.

Bob Jones: Well, that's what I'm saying. You know, where I grew up, I -- in a small town that I lived in, I didn't know of anybody, ever --

Q: Who was divorced.

Bob Jones: Divorced. Never knew of anybody, any student that I went to school with, that came from a -- every student I knew had a full family -- mother, father and brothers, sisters.

Q: You really were in a small town atmosphere.

Bob Jones: (laughs). Well, that's what --

Q: Even I knew people with alternative type stuff, you know?

Bob Jones: Well, I'm just thinking of, in ROTC, you know, 'cause I used to examine kids that got, coming into ROTC, you know, whether they like, or what kind of families do they come from, and I had kids, particularly when we've taught, getting them uniforms, you know, I give 'em $400-$500 worth of uniforms, which I'm still responsible for. And if a kid doesn't show up in the uniform, I say, "What-what happened? Why aren't you in uniform?" Once a week they wore a uniform. "Uh, I'm staying with, I'm staying by my aunt, right now." I've had kids that lived with five, six, seven different families, during one school year. You know, what kind of environment --

Q: That's very difficult on the kids.

Bob Jones: It's pretty tough for a kid to --

Q: Very difficult for the kids. Yeah--

Bob Jones: You know, incredible learning environment when he's moving around like that, you know.

Q: Right.

Bob Jones: And we didn't have that back --

Q: So, we've got five minutes left, we can-- we can take a stop now, or we can -- I want you to think about, before we do another tape, I want to think about, tell me about how you decided to stay here, put down real roots, build a house, that's kind of like really putting down roots. (laughs) And any involvement you might have had with your wife, or what of the two, what types of things in Hanover County, have -- have you given your time to, and that sort of thing. So, you want to stop now, and we'll just go put in another --

Bob Jones: Okay.

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