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Interview with James MacRae (with Henry Perry), March 27, 2003 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Interview with James MacRae (with Henry Perry), March 27, 2003
March 27, 2003
This interview includes two graduates of Williston High School: Mr. James R. McRae '46 and Mr. Henry E. Perry '55. The gentlemen describe the merits of Williston as well as the second class status it maintained in the eyes of the school board. Mr. McRae and Mr. Perry rememeber some of thier favorite teachers and activities concerning the school.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: McRae, James R. and Perry, Henry E.Interviewer: Johnson, Joyce Date of Interview: 3/27/2003 Series: Williston High School Length 37 minutes

Johnson: Good evening. My name is Joyce Johnson and we're here to interview Henry E. Perry and

James R. McRae who are--

McRae: McRae.

Johnson: McRae.

McRae: Mac.

Johnson: Oh, McRae, who are Williston alumni. And we're here today to talk about the Williston

School and the Williston Alumni Association. One of the purposes of doing these interviews is to

capture oral history on Williston. We had a student come to us at Randall Library for information on

Williston High School and we really didn't have any information. And so we are trying to remedy that

now. First, I would like you, Mr. Perry, to tell me about your family. Were you born in Wilmington?

Perry: Yes, I was. I was born in, uh.. Wilmington September the 5th, 1937. My mother, uh.. name is

Mrs. Charlotte L. Perry. My father, uh.. name was Henry E. Perry, Sr. He is deceased. I, uh.. have,

uh.. a brother here in Newark area.

Johnson: And you live in Virginia Beach?

McRae: Yes, I do. I live in Virginia Beach. But I-- I come home regularly to check on my mother to

see how she's doing as often as I can.

Johnson: Yeah, that's great. And, Mr. McRae?

McRae: Oh, I was born in Wilmington, North Carolina, one of, uh.. eight children, all who graduates

from Williston School. I have, uh.. a brother and a sister who are now living in Wilmington. Nieces

and nephews also living in Wilmington who all graduates from Williston.

Johnson: We have our work cut out for us, don't we?(laughter)

McRae: My mother's name was Laura Jane King McRae and my father was John Frederick McRae

who was one of 13 children. And most of them were educated in the Wilmington, North Carolina

school district and most of them taught in the district also.

Johnson: Okay. Tell me, what did you do after graduation, Mr. Perry?

Perry: Well, I finished high school in June of 1955. I went to the military the same month. I served in

the Navy for 10 years, went around the world several times. I, uh.. was discharged from the Navy in

'64 and began to work for the government until I retired in 1997 from the Federal Government.

Johnson: What kind of work did you do for the government?

McRae: I was a manager, federal manager, at one of the, uh.. supply centers.

Johnson: Great.

McRae: And, uh.. I had wonderful life I had a lot of experiences and I wouldn't give it up for anything

in the world. I had a wonderful time, wonderful experiences.

Johnson: Good. What about you, Mr. McRae?

McRae: After graduation, I, uh.. entered the Hampton Institute where I took printing and graphic

arts. And after graduating from Hampton, I went to work at Johnson C. Smith University in Charlotte,

North Carolina for two years. And I left Charlotte and went to, uh.. Richmond, Virginia and worked in

a printing company there called Quality Printing Company. That is where Uncle Sam caught up with

me. (Laughter).

McRae: I went into the Army and, uh.. served for 23 months and 23 days, 18 months of those were

in Korea.

Johnson: You were glad to get out of there, I'll bet.

McRae: Yes. So after I came back and, uh.. was honorably discharged from the service, I, uh..

worked in Raleigh, North Carolina with, uh.. "The Carolinian," which is a newspaper that still exists

there now. It's owned by one of the Gervey boys. And, uh.. I also worked for the Irving Swain Press

in Raleigh. And after I left Raleigh, I went to Washington, D.C. to seek my fortune (laughter).

Johnson: And did you find it?

McRae: Well, I guess so. I worked for a government printing office for, uh.. 29 and a half years, the

last 10 years of which were on Capitol Hill as a liason person between the government printing

office and, uh.. the Senate Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Johnson: Oh, interesting.

McRae: And, uh.. it was, I suppose, the most enjoyable part of my working for the government. I met

a lot of senators, a lot of congress persons and- and a number of, uh.. I guess what you'd call

celebrities (laughter). To me they put their pants on just like I do. (Laughter).

Johnson: And now you live Burgaw?

McRae: Now I live in Burgaw, North Carolina. I've recently moved back to Burgaw-- well, to Burgaw

about two years ago.

Johnson: Okay. What were your best subjects in school?

Perry: History and English. Those two subjects.

Johnson: And why?

McRae: I always enjoyed history and babies' language. And, uh.. I guess I spent more time

researching those subjects than anything else because I was interested in those two subjects.

Johnson: Okay. And what about you, Mr. McRae?

McRae: Well, I can't say that there was any one particular subject I was, uh.. fascinated with. I just

took what they gave me. (Laughter). Did what I could do with it.

Johnson: What about your favorite teachers?

McRae: Well, my favorite teacher was, uh.. Miss Lucille Simon Williams.

Johnson: What did she teach?

McRae: She taught English, which, uh.. I-- she never taught me any subjects. She was my

homeroom teacher.

Johnson: I see.

McRae: And, uh.. she was a very, very strict disciplinarian and I guess that's what I liked about her.

Johnson: Right. Do you have any others?

McRae: Esday Holloway. He, uh.. taught, uh.. chemistry and, uh.. physics. And, uhm.. we had an

enjoyable time in his classes. He was relatively young as a teacher and I guess my little group sort

of helped urge him on and we-- as I say, it was a very enjoyable, uh.. relationship to him.

Johnson: And what about you, Mr. Perry?

Perry: Well, I echo his thoughts about Miss Williams because she was my homeroom teacher, also.

And, also, I cared a great deal for Mrs. Robinson. She taught me all the 11th grade, but Mrs.

Williams was my homeroom teacher in the 12th grade. They both taught English. They were both

good teachers. Both of 'em.

Johnson: And what years did you graduate? In what year?

Perry: I graduated 1955.

Johnson: '55, uh-huh. You, Mr. McRae?

McRae: And I in '46, 1946.

Johnson: Okay.

McRae: Mrs. A.C. King was also one of my favorite teachers.

Johnson: That name has come up quite a bit.

McRae: She didn't take any stuff.

Johnson: And what did she teach?

McRae: She taught English.

Perry: English.

Johnson: She taught English, okay. Now what about other activities, band, glee club, were either of

you members?

Perry: Well, yeah. I was, uh.. in the High Wire Club. Matter of fact, I was the first president of the

Junior High Wire Club. And I, uh.. was on the, uh.. faculty board. So, uh.. in the younger- younger

years, _________ she was across the street, eventually working for us on red lights, things of that

nature. I tried the band, but I wasn't too successful in the band. But I tried, anyhow.

Johnson: What instrument did you try?

McRae: Drums.

Johnson: Oh, did you?

Perry: I got pretty good but, you know, but not that good.

Johnson: You had to be pretty good to be in that band, didn't you?

Perry: Oh, yeah, real good.

Johnson: Who was the instructor then, the band instructor?

Perry: Mr. Floyd.

Johnson: Okay. What about any--

McRae: No. Well, that-- they were just organizing the band during my years, the early years. The,

uh.. director of the band then was, uh.. a guy named Wall I think.

Perry: Wall. Mr. Wall.

McRae: Yeah.

Johnson: So what did you do after school, then? Did you have to work?

McRae: I worked. Yes.

Johnson: Where did you work?

McRae: I worked as a printer staff at the RS Durvay Printing Company.

Johnson: So you got into that business early on?

McRae: Yes. Yeah, oh yeah.

Johnson: That's great.

McRae: That was before they had labor laws against, uh.. (Laughter).

McRae: You could work there and you did work. You were going to school and you were going to

have a job. Didn't say too much about it then.

Johnson: And what about you, any after school activities?

Perry: I had a job, too. I worked for the Center Drug Company on Princess Street. In those days you

had to ride a bicycle. And I would ride all over town on bicycle and on Princess Street. They worked

all of the time. But it-- at that time you didn't think about, you know, because I was young and

energetic and strong.

Johnson: Had energy to burn.

Perry: Energy to burn. (Laughter).

Perry: So it was nothing for me to ride all day, you know?

Johnson: Right. What about any social clubs? Did they have social clubs while you were in school? I know they talked about the Gaylords, the Aristrocrats, the Uniques, uh...

Perry: I think we were-- I think they may have had something, but I'm not- I'm not too sure about


Johnson: Same? He had to go to his job.

McRae: Yeah. I had to go to work after school. There wasn't a lot of extracurricular activities which I

participated in. One of the things that I'm most proud of of my class having, uh.. done was to

produce the first yearbook ever at Williston Industrial School, the Class of '46. And most of that work

was done by me and three or four other people. We had a group of people, but only three or four of

us did the work.

Johnson: But you were the leaders.

McRae: Yeah.

Johnson: Do you still have a copy of it?

McRae: Yes, I do.

Johnson: We might want to make a copy of your yearbook.

McRae: I- I didn't think about it. I could have brought it with me.

Johnson: Well, we can get it later, if you don't mind. We might make a copy of it.

McRae: Not at all.

Johnson: Okay.

Perry: I have mine also. But it's-- if I had know, I would have brought it, you know? But--

Johnson: That's okay.

Perry: I have mine from '55.

Johnson: When you come back and see your mama you can come and bring it with you.

Perry: Okay. I can do that.

Johnson: Because anything like that we can get, even if we just make a copy of it, it will be

something we can put in the archives for the-- yeah.

Perry: I'll bring it back when I come next time and I'll give you a call.

Johnson: Great.

Perry: All right?

McRae: I think someone at the university, a person (inaudible).

Johnson: Yes.

McRae: She had utilized some of the pictures from the yearbook and stuff.

Perry: She's my ____________.

Johnson: We haven't talked to her yet.

Perry: She's my classmate.

Johnson: Oh. We'll put her on our list. As we interview different people, they talked about different

nobles that attended Williston, such as Jimmy Dees (sp?) and Meadowlark Lemon. Were there any

in your class or-- other than yourselves?

Perry: Jimmy Dees (sp?) was a little ahead of me.

Johnson: Okay.

Perry: But Meadowlark Lemon, I remember him. He finished maybe three years ahead of me. But

his wife was in my class, Rita Farrell. I remember Sam Borens. He was a year behind me.

Johnson: And who was he?

Perry: He's a professional baseball player, Borens.

Johnson: Uh-huh.

Perry: And I remember also, uhm.. Althea Gibson. She was ahead of me, but I remember-- I recall

her. Yeah.

Johnson: She lived with Dr. Eaton at the time?

Perry: She did. That's correct, yes.

McRae: Yeah. She attended some of my classes, early classes in my school at the time. I

remember her also.

Johnson: Uh-huh. Yeah. Were there any others that you might think of?

Perry: I recall we had one during my attending, but some came behind me that I knew-- I heard

about, but I wasn't there in their attending.

Johnson: LIke who are you thinking of?

Perry: This one fellow that plays football, but I can't recall the name. But I- I heard he attended

Williston, but I can't recall his name anymore.

Johnson: Okay.

Perry: But, uh.. I was told that he attended Williston. But I-- he came way behind me. I had long


Johnson: Now, while you were there, did you take field trips?

Perry: Yes. Sometimes, yeah. We went up to the, uh.. Biltmore Estate, Nashville, and we had a trip

to Washington, D.C., the class did. And, uh.. sometime we would go up to, uh.. Raleigh or- or

Greensboro A&T.

Johnson: Yeah, that's been mentioned before.

Perry: Yeah. A&T in Greensboro.

McRae: We participated in competitions at A&T.

Johnson: What kind of competitions?

McRae: Well, for instance it was automobile mechanics. It was a sort of relatively new subject. At

most at that time I think there was about two or three years in the making. And, uh.. they had these

statewide competitions at A&T. And we would go up and, uh.. of course, they would __________

pages of finding out, diagnosing what was wrong with the vehicle and stuff like that.

Johnson: That's great.

Perry: And, also, the-- in the, uh.. athletic department they had competition doing sports brought

over different schools at Raleigh, Durham, Ashville, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Fayetteville,

Hoskin, Goldsboro, Durham, we had a--

Johnson: Traveleled all over the state.

Perry: Yes, the whole state. Yeah, the whole state, Fayetteville, Rocky Mount, baseball, football,

basketball. They don't have, uh.. tennis and track. But in the beginning they just had baseball,

football and basketball.

Johnson: And did you play on any of those teams?

Perry: No.

Johnson: No? Do you feel-- well, how do you feel about the closing of Williston?

Perry: Well, I don't think they should close the school. And that's my personal feeling because to me

something was lost that you'll never regain. And this is my personal opinion and I'm entitled to that,

you know? But I think the school-- we lost part of our identity when that school was closed.

Johnson: So do you feel that it could have been kept open as an integrated school?

Perry: Yes, I do. What I don't understand was when the school was built in 1954, not the first place

but the new building, 1954 and that's Williston Junior High School. Might have been second place.

When the school was built at that time it was supposed to have been one of the best high schools in

the State of North Carolina. And what I can't understand is 14 years later it's inferior. I don't

understand that. Fourteen years is not very long for a school.

Johnson: Right.

Perry: All of a sudden, it's inferior. So that's- that's been my thoughts.

Johnson: Yeah.

McRae: Well, he's speaking about a different Williston from the Williston that I knew. You know, he's

speaking about that Ray building up there.

Perry: Yeah, Williston Senior High.

McRae: Yeah. What you call the senior high school now. But I went to school in the building that has

Williston on the top of it, you know, engraved. That was the Williston. Yeah. They call it Gregory

now, but, see, Gregory was up on Seventh and Nun Street.

Johnson: Yeah, that's confusing for people that don't know the whole history.

McRae: Yeah. Sure. That's where the Gregory school was. It was a noble institution. Yeah. But, uh..

I went to-- Williston was that building right there on the corner of Seventh-- Tenth and Ann.

Johnson: Right.

McRae: So when I hear people talking about the Williston that you talk about, I have to get my

thoughts together.

Johnson: Right. So now the building that you went to high school in is a middle school.

Perry: Yes, it is.

Johnson: And the building that you went to high school in is Gregory Elementary.

McRae: Yeah. Some-- I think it's some sort of specialty school.

Johnson: Yeah, it's a magnet school.

McRae: Now it's a magnet school. (All persons talking).

Johnson: Okay. But, still, that spirit of Williston you both experienced, wherever it was.

Perry: Oh, yeah. It was there.

Johnson: So what was that? Can you describe that?

Perry: It's a-- well, it's a feeling that you have within. It's kind of hard to-- if you had to-- had to feel it.

You know, it's kind of hard to- to explain.

Johnson: It's hard to describe.

Perry: You had to be within, feelings, you know. It was there.

Johnson: Sense of belonging?

Perry: Oh, yes.

McRae: Yeah. Well, he has a different Williston feeling, you see. They also have different colors.

See, when I went to school, the school colors were blue and white.

Johnson: Right.

McRae: And the alma mater was a different song from the song that they sang at his. But that

feeling itself, Williston, the teachers were still there, a lot of them, and this, uh.. I don't know,

whatever this thing that you feel about Williston was instilled in the students down through the ages,


Johnson: It was. They closed my junior year, so--(all talking).

Perry: Because, uh.. my schools colors are blue and gold.

McRae: See, my- my class was the last class which went from one to eleven grades. I went to-- next

year they went from one to 12 grades.

Perry: (Inaudible).

Johnson: Okay. I wonder why they'd have changed the song and the colors, do you know?

Perry: Well, I was home last summer for a _________ and they sang both songs.

Johnson: All right, good. (Laughing).

Perry: One I knew and one I didn't know. (Laughing).

Johnson: That's great. Now, are both of you members of the Williston Alumni?

Perry: Oh, yes.

McRae: Yeah.

Johnson: Okay. Tell us something about the Williston Alumni Assocaition.

Perry: Well, from what I gather, they are, uh.. do great things. They, uh.. do baskets for the needy on- on Thanksgiving and I understand they provide some form of scholarships to, uh.. different, uh..

students, you know. Not a whole four years, but something to help them.

Johnson: Right. Something to get them started.

Perry: Get them started. And I think the, uh.. they're doing a great job. I really think so.

McRae: They have a group of, uh.. dedicated people, Linda Pierce being one of them, and, uhm..


Perry: Lewis.

McRae: Lewis.

Perry: Barbara Ann, her mother.

Johnson: We interviewed Barbara's mother.

McRae: They meet the first Saturday of every month. And there's usually someone there from the

class of '32. (Laughing).

Johnson: Do you feel that attending Williston protected students from discrimination?

Perry: You mean- you mean at that time or what?

Johnson: Yes, at that time.

Perry: No. No, I do not.

Johnson: And why do you feel that it didn't?

Perry: Because you wouldn't go to school all the time. So you were protected maybe for maybe--

Johnson: (Inaudible).

Perry: -- period of time, but when you came out to the real world you weren't protected anymore.

Johnson: Right.

McRae: But you were discriminated through the use of your textbooks and everything. See, we used

a textbook from New Hanover High School that we used the year before. I made many a trip from New Hanover High School to Williston School with these books in my arms.

Johnson: Okay. So you would have to go over there to get them?

McRae: Oh, yeah. Sure. They were textbooks that, uh.. the white kids had used the year before.

Perry: What- what they would do, they- they wouldn't buy, uh.. us new books. They would send the

new books over to the white school and then they in turn would send the old books, like he was

saying, over to Williston, to the black schools. We- we could never get any new books. They all went

to the white schools. And they, in turn, gave us the books that the white kids had used prior. We

never got new books.

Johnson: Right.

Perry: We knew it. New buses. We got old buses. We had one bus, uh.. the bus we had for Williston

they called the bumblebee. That bus was so ragged I think sometimes it-- if you had to go up a hill

you'd get taken off the bus, off the bus--

Johnson: So it could make it up the hill?

Perry: So then it could go up the hill and you could get back on the bus. (Laughing).

Johnson: Now, we've also been told while we were interviewing about the alumni association July

4th celebration. Do you-- either of you attend?

Perry: I attended last year.

Johnson: Did you? Okay.

Perry: Yes.

Johnson: Tell us about what they do at that.

Perry: Well, they had, uh.. we had a dinner, dinner dance, uh.. we had a raffle, had a keynote

speaker. It's like a banquet. They had a-- they awarded scholarships. It was like a- a banquet, a

dinner dance. It was all like a big homecoming for Willistonians. You know, it's a big dinner affair.

Johnson: So you get a lot of participation?

Perry: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

McRae: That has been going on for a number of years, this, uh.. celebration I guess you would call

it. And it's always held around the 4th of July. So most Willistonians who are coming home are

planning to come home, uh.. they gear the activities to that date. I know I had done it for years,

living in Washington, D.C.

Johnson: You look forward to coming home for that?

McRae: Oh, yes. Yes.

Johnson: See all your old friends?

McRae: Right.

Perry: They're all there.

Johnson: Now, at the Christmas season, do they do other events then, too? Or is it mostly just 4th

of July?

McRae: They- they have a dance and, uh.. one or two other activities around the Christmas season.

Johnson: So they're targeting times when they know people are going to come back home?

McRae: Sure.

Perry: Yes.

Johnson: So would you say a lot of Williston graduates left town, then, to find better opportunities? I

mean, you both did.

McRae: That's why I say most.

Perry: That's why we left. That's why I left.

McRae: The opportunities weren't here, so--

Johnson: Right.

Perry: If there had been, a lot of them would have stayed in the city.

Johnson: Would have been glad to stay if they could have found--

McRae: Of course. I would have remembered distinctly the Wilmington Star News had-- Star News

had an advertisement for a line type operator, this is one of the specialties. And, uh.. I went down

there to talk with them and all of a sudden, the job was filled. That's the sort of thing. Well, I knew

that I wasn't going to get the job to begin with, you know. But I was willing to try.

Johnson: Right.

McRae: And that's what I did over and over again. But I would have loved to have worked for the

Star News and stayed in Wilmington. One of my, uh.. pet peeves with my brothers and sisters and

I'm very, very envious of them. They got to stay home. They had jobs at home, you know, that I

would have loved to have stayed in Wilmington.

Johnson: So what did your brothers and sisters do? What were their jobs?

McRae: My brother worked for the federal government, Fort Downey, the State Port Authority. You

might remember when they used to have ships down here in mothballs on the river. They called it in

mothballs (unintelligible). But he was the last employee. Some tourist bus came by complaining

about these ships are rusting. And he painted the first ship because all you could see was--

Johnson: Couldn't see anything behind that. (Laughing).

McRae: That satisfied that. But he was the last employee working for the federal government. And

then my, uh.. sisters worked with, uh.. well, my oldest sister worked with the retarded, uh..

organization for retarded children. Then I had a sister who worked with the elderly and another one

who taught school here.

Johnson: But you had a special skill, so in order for you to advance in your career you had to--

McRae: Yeah. Well, it was the only way for me to go any place in- in, uh.. the printing industry was

to leave here. And, uh.. you couldn't join the unions or anything of that sort, you see.

Johnson: That's Wilmington's loss.

McRae: Yes.

Perry: Yes.

Johnson: Tell me what, in your own words, what Williston means to you. When you hear that word "Williston", what does that mean to you?

Perry: Well, when I hear the word I, uh.. think about all of the teachers and how hard they tried to

make us excel and all my classmates. Some of them have deceased. Think about walking the halls

and going to the ball game in the park, you know, football games and it just brings back memories

of, uh.. when you were young and carefree and you know, it just brings back memories, you know, I

mean good memories. You know? And, uhm.. even though we had hard times and we knew we

weren't being treated the way we should have been treated, we still had a nice time. Some things

you have to adjust to, you know, like-- and we adjusted. I'm not saying it was right, but we adjusted.

And some of us, most of us excelled for Williston. Most of them at Williston, they, uh.. they excelled,

they got their jobs and most of them did well for themselves. You'll find a few that are-- fell through

the cracks, but that's any- anywhere you go. But I think Williston gave a good quality education.

ANd, uh.. it was there for students to grab if they wanted to grab it. And I said before, some did and

some didn't. But it was there. The teachers were dedicated teachers. They did a lot of things for us

of their own pockets for the classrooms because the money wasn't there from the, uh.. board of

education. But they wanted to make sure that we had what we needed, and we did. And I thank

them for that. I really do. It's so- it's so sad that you don't realize what you have until it's lost. That's

a true statement.

Johnson: That's true.

Perry: That's a true statement. But I can tell you now that it was enough for me. I appreciate it. I

really do.

McRae: Well, I'm sure that I wouldn't be sitting here now if it hadn't been for what was instilled in me

at Williston. And that's the sort of thoughts that come to my mind every time someone says

Williston. You see a group of people anywhere and if they mention Williston, I'm ready to talk about


Perry: We have to.

McRae: Yes.

Johnson: So there's a lot of pride there.

McRae: There is indeed, yes.

Perry: I'll carry it to my grave.

Johnson: Do either of you know of other people that we might interview, besides all your brothers

and sisters?

McRae: Besides my brothers and sisters. (Laughing).

McRae: Oh, you were speaking of people locally.

Johnson: Or if they'll come back to town. We might need to take this camera to 4th of July.

Perry: That's a good time.

Johnson: Yeah, it would be.

Perry: Good time.

McRae: Well, locally, there's a classmate of mine. Her name is Doris Taft. And she lives over on

Kaler (sp?) Street. I could give you her telephone number. You might want to call her and--

Johnson: Right.

McRae: She has strong memories of things that, uh.. happened to her now of growing up and

school years and stuff like that. It's sort of difficult for me to remember exactly everything that she

did. If you've been as many places as I have and met as many people as I have, you have a

tendency to erase. (Laughing).

Johnson: That's right. You got to throw away some memories and make room for some new ones.

McRae: Yes. (Inaudible). (Laughing).

Johnson: Well, we'll put her on our list.

McRae: Yes.

Johnson: Okay. All right. Anything else you'd like to add?

Perry: Oh, let's see. I don't think that much-- I have classmates you maybe want to contact. You

may want to contact Russell Jackson. He lives over on Princess Place. I don't have his phone

number, but it's in the book.

Johnson: Okay. I know Russell.

Perry: You know Russell?

Johnson: My cousin is your classmate also, Heller [sp?].

Perry: Is that right? Yeah. Mary Jane.

Johnson: Uh-huh.

Perry: Yeah. You can contact Mary and Jimmy. You know? (Laughing).

McRae: My classmates are monthly. So I'll mention this interview to them and, uh.. if you give me

your card or something like that I can--

Johnson: I sure will. Okay. Well, I'd like to thank both of you for allowing us to interview you.

Perry: My pleasure.

Johnson: Thank you.

Perry: Thank you.

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