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Title:
Interview with Luleen Anderson, October 3, 2007
Date:
October 3, 2007
Description:
In this interview, author and clinical psychologist Luleen Anderson discusses the path that led her to writing, the interplay between her clinical practice and her writing life, and her sources of inspiration for her books and essays.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee:  Anderson, Luleen Interviewer:  Rodrigues, Carmen Date of Interview:  10/3/2007 Series:  SENC Writers Length  60 minutes

 

Rodrigues: This is Carmen Rodrigues. Today is October 3rd, 2007. I'm in Wilmington at the home of noted clinical psychologist and author, Luleen Anderson. Luleen is the author of more than four books, including her most recent publication, The Knack of a Happy Life. Hello Luleen.

Luleen Anderson: Hello.

Rodrigues: You're the author of more than four books, scores of articles, and you're also a local columnist for Wilma!, Wilmington's monthly magazine for women?

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: How much of your life has been spent writing?

Luleen Anderson: Well, that's hard to say because its been episodic. I went to college to major in journalism but when the degree was dropped I got a little side tracked and got a PhD in clinical psychology. But I have written off and on almost all of my life. But now that I'm retired I get to write even more. So my career has been in clinical psychology but I've always, for many, many years, published in both professional journals, newspapers, magazines, so a large portion.

Rodrigues: Let's go back to the very beginning. I like to go back to childhood and take a look at how some of the, um, what may happen when we're young lead us to the path of being writers.

Luleen Anderson: Um hum.

Rodrigues: You grew up in Georgia.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: And you were the eighth child in a family of nine.

Luleen Anderson: That's right.

Rodrigues: And your parents were sharecroppers?

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: How did that life, being in a rural area of Georgia and having many siblings, how'd that lead you maybe toward the path of becoming a writer?

Luleen Anderson: Well it certainly made me interested in people and negotiating relationships. When you're eighth out of nine children, ah, you have to find a way to do business with a large group of people every day. I think that it was helpful living ah, in a rural area in that we had neighbors and hopeful people around us doing chores, doing activities and um, taking care of each other.

Rodrigues: Did you read a lot as a child as well?

Luleen Anderson: I did. Um, I used to...my book Under The Covers reflects sitting under quilts, when I was six or seven, that my mother and sister and neighbors were quilting, ah reading. So I would sit reading at a very early age. When I was just finishing the third grade in my little high school, I won the prize for reading the most books of anyone in the little town of Roberta one summer. Forty three. And so I won this big twenty five dollar prize which was pretty, pretty special. But yea, I've always been an avid reader.

Rodrigues: Would you share your books with your siblings? Was there a book circle that would happen within the family, or were you one...?

Luleen Anderson: No, my reading and sharing was outside the family primarily. Ah, on the farm there weren't books and magazines. Ah, we got the Sunday paper. So I spent my time in the library. And, ah, later in life joined writers groups and shared that way. Still have one of those.

Rodrigues: Did you have a...at a young age...did you have a particular teacher...you later went on to college initially to study journalism...

Luleen Anderson: Yea. Right.

Rodrigues: So did you have a teacher that said "Luleen, you've got some talent here, you really need to look into this"?

Luleen Anderson: They didn't say major in journalism but they did say "You have to go to college," and provided scholarship. So, ah, the journalism idea was mainly mine I think from somewhere it came. But they said "You have to go to college, you're good at what you do." I did...I...I was the editor of the newspaper in high school so people knew that I could write. Ah, and then when I went to college, I spent a summer in Cuba, pre-Castro in a...a mission. And so I did some writing there that got published in my college magazine. So that's when it began to be um, apparent that...that I might have some gifts in that...in that direction.

Rodrigues: And so you...you go to college. You went to Wesleyan.

Luleen Anderson: Wesleyan College in Macon. It's a Methodist school, all girls school. And I grew up in the Methodist church, so I got a scholarship to go there, and was going to major as I said in journalism, until the...at the end of my freshman year, they dropped the journalism major. So I switched to psychology, but kept writing. And from there went to Emory University for masters in psych and then on to Boston University for PhD in clinical psych, but continued to write there...ah, a lot of professional journal writing when I started and then branched out. One of my first really successful articles appeared in Children Today which is published by National Institute of Health. And that was called When a Child Goes to School. And that got picked up by the consumer group in Pueblo Colorado and they distributed over three hundred thousand copies of that. Um, doesn't make you wealthy. I was not paid for that because Children Today is a non-copyrighted magazine. But that was the very first sort of major distribution of my work. And another one came out in Children Today called the...The Aggressive Child. And so those started out to be the more popular ones. And then I began to do some freelance for The Boston Globe and was interested in making, ah, psychological principals available to the public at large. So I did a little freelancing for the Globe and began to write the book Sunday Came Early This Week, which was the first book I had done. And that was in the 80s. And that was published by Schenkman Books out of Cambridge Mass.

Rodrigues: And you...I want to go back just a little bit because I'm curious, um, what led you from deciding when your...when your scholarship was...was cancelled, or...or discontinued, I should say, um...

Luleen Anderson: Not the scholarship, when the major...

Rodrigues: Oh, right.

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: When the major...when the major was eliminated from the curriculum.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: What made you decide, well I'll go to...into psychology. What drew you to that particular field?

Luleen Anderson: Well...I didn't originally decide. I was getting...I was going to get a major in journalism and a minor in religion, ah, and do that kind of writing. So when the journalism major sort of evaporated I decided well I would major in religion and sociology. And so I was a junior before I took my first psych course, and then I got hooked. And so my professor insisted that I, you know, pursue that, and I did. So, ah...so I ended up with one course shy of a, I guess, triple major between psych and religion and sociology. So when I went to Emory I still, to get in graduate school, had to take a couple of more undergraduate courses, which I did at the extension Georgia State. So its like for most people, you shop around before you find what you're going to spend your life doing.

Rodrigues: And was it...with psychology, was it the way that you could go in and help people?

Luleen Anderson: Yes. And understand and relate to them. Yes. And be helpful.

Rodrigues: And so is your writing then an extension of that? Is that a way...

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: ...you're...more people, to help them?

Luleen Anderson: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Its just a different venue.

Rodrigues: Okay. And when you're writing and you...let's talk about your first...your first book.

Luleen Anderson: Uh huh.

Rodrigues: Sunday Came Early This Week.

Luleen Anderson: Yea.

Rodrigues: And that was published in 1982.

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: What made you...you'd been writing articles and had been freelancing, what made you decide that you were ready to sit down and write a book?

Luleen Anderson: Well, the person I was working with, Becky in the book, was so fascinating. And she too was a good writer. I knew her her senior year. Ah, but she wrote these long epistles to me between appointments and so she was so good at telling her own story that that's what inspired me. And she urged me to do it...to try book form.

Rodrigues: And so talk to me a little bit about that first time sitting down and...and writing something that's a lot lengthier and dealing with really accurately capturing this relationship between you and this patient.

Luleen Anderson: Yea.

Rodrigues: I know that in the book you use, um, alias's for both you and...

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: ...the patient.

Luleen Anderson: Right. Right.

Rodrigues: But the reality is that it was really this relationship that you had.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: A special relationship.

Luleen Anderson: Most of it just focused in the therapy sessions, plus the letters that ah...so I just focused on telling her story. And the first review...the editor um, before it was accepted, said, "This is a great story, but you don't have yourself in it." He said, "You make it sound like she got better," (cough) excuse me, I have a little cold...ah, "you make it sound as though she got better talking to a blank wall." So what I discovered was, I had to put myself into it. So that was hard to create myself as a character. But it turned out well and I kept the character Amanda for the second book, but the agreement with Becky was that I would tell it from my point of view, not hers. She did not edit it. She didn't see a copy until it was published, ah, but I had permission, notarized permission, ah, which she gave, and then I asked her to wait for a month, ah, before getting it um, notarized, so she'd be sure. But she went on, she's got two masters ah, and has published an anthology of work over the years, so...so she helped write the book.

Rodrigues: And you two are still in touch?

Luleen Anderson: Not now because, well its just hard to stay in touch, but we were for a number of years and I met her when I was speaking in Boston a number of years ago. And then occasionally we kept in touch. But she's traveled and the last time I heard from her she was in the special books section of a very well known ah, university in the country. Ah, and doing really well and working on her anthology which I heard later was out. So...so she made the writing of that book very special.

Rodrigues: And you went on to write another book about another one of your patients.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: Um.

Luleen Anderson: Josh.

Rodrigues: Josh. And that book is titled Fill Me Up...

Luleen Anderson: Fill Me Up To Empty.

Rodrigues: And I love the title.

Luleen Anderson: Well, thank you, I love to make up...to come up with titles. They're not made up. Ah, each of those is something that the ah, client said to me somewhere in the, ah, in the treatment or someone in, you know, in...involved in the treatments...said a line...which I always like to grab for a book title.

Rodrigues: And how do you determine which patient you will write about. How...how'd the second book...did you run into somebody that you thought their story needs to be told, or...?

Luleen Anderson: Yes. Exactly, yes. And its an intuitive thing that this is a story that will resonate. And um, it's really every...everybody's story of making it despite troubles. So...so Josh was equally compelling. His was through music. He loved Broadway musicals and sang them during the session even though he was autistic. And I took him a copy of this book, ah, without identifying sour...ah, places. Um, he's in...he works...just won a fifteen year pin for working in the same place. Ah, and so I took him a copy of the book and his mother's...his mother a copy. They too, of course, had signed and she had signed for him, but we've kept in touch and ah that's been exciting to see him and interview him, ah, twenty years after...after therapy ended.

Rodrigues: Um, you get this first spark of intuition when you're meeting with a patient that you see their story is really special, it really deserves to be shared with the world...

Luleen Anderson: Um hum.

Rodrigues: Um, at what point in that process do you say, "Well I...I think this will probably be something that I'll want to write about." Is it early on in the relationship, or is it something that maybe...

Luleen Anderson: It's something that evolves. But I do not do the writing or even approach the client because it would intrude on the therapeutic process, but I wait until the therapy is over or almost over. In the first incidence, Becky suggested that I should write this, and we kept in touch. I didn't write it until she was away in college. Ah, I had just known her her senior year. So you have to make sure it doesn't intrude on the...the therapeutic process. You don't sit there saying and then I'll write this, and tell me this. So I...I kept copious notes. I kept everything she wrote. And then when she was maybe a sophomore or junior in college and we were still in touch, ah, and I said, you know, I've been thinking about your suggesting this, so she wrote back with the permission. And then with Josh, ah, his mother had suggested that his story be told when I ah, ended therapy with him. He was only...I started when he was twelve...he was probably about fourteen. And so he was now an adult living in another state, working, when I tracked him down and asked him and his mother if they were interested still. And they were. So that was written, the Fill Me Up To Empty, was written oh years and years after therapy ended.

Rodrigues: And then you've also written, um, two books which I...I would categorize them as inspirational. How would you...

Luleen Anderson: Oh, yea.

Rodrigues: Is that correct?

Luleen Anderson: I think, yes, I think that, especially the last one is categorized by the publisher of the Knack of a Happy Life, is listed as inspirational ah, and the third book, Under The Covers, ah, is not listed as inspirational but I think perhaps the pieces are. That's the collection of essays that I wrote over the years about various people, characters in my life growing up.

Rodrigues: And can you share with us verbally one of those stories that we might find in Under The Covers?

Luleen Anderson: Oh dear, let me think. Well there are a couple of...in there, of local characters that I think people would find interesting. And these are all true stories. But there's one in there of a...I have to think of what I've changed his name to...ah, I think I changed his name to Nate or Nat, I don't remember, but anyway of an elderly gentleman, who, a true story, was given a fourteen year old girl ah, by that girl's family for um, for buying them a farm. And he saw nothing wrong with this and he built in the backyard, which was a little rode away from where I lived, a bicycle circle for her to be able to ride her bicycle, sort of just treating her like a child, of which I hope was all he treated her like, but nobody in this little town seemed to see anything particularly wrong with that as I was growing up. Of course, I graduated from the Roberta Crawford County High school in 54, so this was a long time ago. But this...this man later ran for State Representative and almost made it. So it was clear to me nobody saw, except me is seemed, this to be particularly a little cock-eyed. But there's also a story in there of a...of a person who was sure that there were some aliens flying over his house. And so he put this mannequin in the second floor window to let them know that no matter what...at what times they came by somebody was watching them. And then finally decided he would just act as though he was welcoming them. So he made a little landing pad, kind of like a helicopter pad, on his front lawn. And again, true story, a year or so later there was a helicopter...my little town's near Warner Robins Air Force Base...that had to make an emerg...emergency landing. And so they're circling, and they see this spot. And so this vindicated him, that here comes this...(laughing)...so he was always sure they were aliens rather than U.S. Army or Air Force. But there...there are those kinds of characters in there as well as more poignant stories.

Rodrigues: And with that piece with Under The Covers, did you want to partially pay tribute to this childhood and...

Luleen Anderson: Yes, exactly.

Rodrigues: And this interesting talent...

Luleen Anderson: Yes. Yes...my roots.

Rodrigues: And perhaps...and the respective that you gained as...

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: ...you were growing up and meeting...and dealing...you said negotiating...

Luleen Anderson: You got it.

Rodrigues: ...with all those different people.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: That's great. And then you moved on in 2007, this year, and The Knack of...The Knack of a Happy Life was published.

Luleen Anderson: Um hum.

Rodrigues: And that has a...a very, um, very heavy title, in the sense that its basically saying that you can control your life, in some manner...you can have a happy life? Is that what that...?

Luleen Anderson: No, you can't control your life, but you can be happy in spite of...its not about controlling, its about understanding and living into, but it doesn't mean if you're happy you don't suffer. It means happiness is a choice you make, misery is optional.

Rodrigues: And so was it important then for you to really make that distinction, um, because this is something you've probably been doing to your clients.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: Or distinguishing for your clients all these years.

Luleen Anderson: Exactly, yes. I try to live a happy life.

Rodrigues: You wanted to kind of...

Luleen Anderson: Well, as I retired it was nice to have a different venue for...for sharing what I think I know. Which is explored in the columns for five years and now in a complication of those articles, ah, saying what...what's possible and what maybe we're called upon to explore...that misery is optional. I think it's a profound concept.

Rodrigues: I think so too. With the articles from Wilma! Magazine, which we find in The Knack of a Happy Life...

Luleen Anderson: Yes. Yes.

Rodrigues: ...along with new material.

Luleen Anderson: Along with new material, yes, and organization of them into themes.

Rodrigues: You, um, I was reading an article that I think was the most recent article in Wilma! magazine, you were talking about, um...about living a life that is filled with just the right amount of adventure.

Luleen Anderson: Yes. Oh yes, you read the one on adventure...that's the epilogue in the book, the one about adventure. Ah, which is different from thrill seeking and danger seeking, so it's the right amount ah, without...it's taking into account skills, risk benefits, rather than just an acting out adventure that maybe somebody's going to get hurt.

Rodrigues: And so are these...are these essays...do they develop from conversations that you have with your clients, with um...

Luleen Anderson: The essays that come from Wilma! were assigned topics. Wilma! magazine has a theme for each magazine and so my assignment was just to write something in that topic. That particular magazine topic, was of course adventure, but then I have room to write within that category whatever I chose to. What I do is to use illustrations from clients, friends, myself, family to illustrate the point, but the theme itself was dictated by the magazine. And the publisher picked that particular one as the epilogue to the book. But the...this October theme was a bit of a challenge because its, being Halloween, called angels and demons. So...so I...each theme, I organize each ah, essay into a broader theme and being a psychologist, the book is set up, I think everything's developmental, so it's set up in the terms of a developmental theme of being happy, how you learn the knack, being happy with yourself, being happy with family of origin, being happy with friends...you know, all the way to ah...life's transitions and old age. And so the essays are grouped in those categories with new material and...and an introduction to each chapter. So the subtitle is nine lessons along the journey. And that's the nine chapters.

Rodrigues: And it seems to me that being a...a psychologist has enriched your life as a writer.

Luleen Anderson: Oh yes, exactly. It was fortuitous that I didn't get a major in journalism.

Rodrigues: Has being a writer enriched your life as a psychologist?

Luleen Anderson: Yes, I get to share books with clients, suggest why they might want to read, have them talk to me about what they've read, encourage journal keeping. I have several clients who have kept really incredible journals. And I think their knowing that I'm a writer encourages them to put their thoughts down. People who can write, ah, have an advantage in working through their problems...to put 'em on paper. And I read them.

Rodrigues: As a...as a writer, I want to talk a little bit about just the process of writing for you.

Luleen Anderson: Um hum.

Rodrigues: Um...you...do you...when you're...when you're in writing mode and you set yourself aside...

Luleen Anderson: Um hum.

Rodrigues: Um...when you're in that mode though, being a writer, is it...is it kind of a furious writing or is it very slow...?

Luleen Anderson: It's very slow. I...I'm not a whirlwind-y kind of per...person. I'm probably more boringly plodding along. But I tend to write...I think I tend to write in my head and then when I sit down to put it on paper it goes very quickly. But I have a best friend who edits what I write and so brainstorming sometimes, just driving along, talking about what I'm about to write will suggest something to me and I will come home and jot it down. But the Wilma! columns I tended to ah, talk with her about the topic, make some notes, leave it for a couple days, come back to the computer, sit down and quite often write it within an hour or so, the first draft. But as I said, I'd been working on it in...in my head. Plus a writers group ah, I don't know if you know Ellyn Bache who wrote Safe Passage, that was made into a movie, and has written ten or twelve books...books, but she had a writers group and when I moved here she invited me to join it. So we would talk about what each...she's now moved to Pennsylvania, but we would all talk about what we were thinking about writing or working on and critique each other's work. And so by the time I sat down to write, quite often my first draft was pretty much my last draft. And that was true even of my doctoral dissertation. I got my or...oral scheduled based on the first draft of my dissertation. So I jokingly say my first time is as about as good as its going to get, which is a bit of exaggeration ah, you know, I do improve it with subsequent looks. But by the time I sit down to write, I have pretty clear picture of what it is I...I want to say. And sit there and think of illustrations from my forty three years of clinical practice. And so a lot of that is just to make sure things are camouflaged, you know, if its family member, I might say a friend, or if it's a client I might say a family member. So I always disguise the person but not the content.

Rodrigues: How have your family members and your friends felt about appearing in your work?

Luleen Anderson: Ah, my family members seem...my family is not a reading family, so I have some wonderful stories about their reaction and how sort of nonplus they are about it. My elderly sister who lives in St. Augustine, who ah, got married at age fifteen, so she didn't finish high school...so when she got a copy of I think it was Fill Me Up To Empty, she called me and said that she had tried to read it but she couldn't get through it but she's put it in the bathroom and she's going to try to read it when she's using the bathroom. And I said "why would you put yourself through that? If you didn't make it the first time, give it up." And she said, and this is one of my favorite responses from my family, she said, "Well we are not...we're interested in medicine (meaning her and her elderly husband), but not psychiatry." She promoted me, I guess, up to psychiatry. But she said, "We prefer to watch medical shows where they're doing surgeries and heart transplants." And I said, "You go Fred, you just put that book away and you watch those shows." But she was not...not impressed. My family has not...they've been supportive but um, I was the first to go to college and being eighth out of nine, my parents couldn't quite figure out what that was all about. My younger sister later got her associates degree in nursing and was a very successful nurse for many years. Ah, but, so the last two went beyond high school. But my family, my other...another brother, I was told, that he did read I guess Under The Covers and with no embarrassment ah, my sister said "I think that's the second book I've ever seen him read." So I...I'm really quite different in the sense of my attraction to the written word.

Rodrigues: In...in the article that I had referred to earlier in Wilma!, you...you reference a friend and you talk a little bit about her life. How do your friends feel about finding themselves appearing in some of your essays?

Luleen Anderson: Well many of the examples come from one or two close friends and I of course get their permission, but most of the stories they have told, not just...if their friends, they're not clients, and so there's no issue of confidentiality, but I do ask them anyway. But one friend is quoted in the book so many times, and I said to her, "do you feel like a split personality?" because every time one of your quotes appears I give you a different name. So I said you've got about eight different names. Ah, because sometimes it'll be a story about that person, sometimes it'll be something I heard their family member say, or sometimes it'll be a story they told about someone else. And I try to focus on the story, not the individual. But there is a...an essay in The Knack called run for your life where I, that is a story, a true story of someone I know well, and is well known in this community. So I asked, first of all for permission to tell the story, and she was very pleased. And then I asked about changing her name, but she wanted her...I just use first names, but she wanted her correct, her real name and her husband's name used. So I'm very careful about the illustrations that I use that are any way revelatory in any significant way, I ask permission. And then as I said I change, if it were a client and they give permission, I might say a friend. Or if its my goddaughter, I might say a young woman. But I...I'm very careful that they want it told.

Rodrigues: You mentioned that in your...in your sessions with your clients...therapeutic sessions with your clients...

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: ...you encouraged journal writing.

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: How is the...?

Luleen Anderson: If they know how to write, some people, you know, have never written a thing and don't have an interest. So you try to find something else. But if they...if I can tell that they're good writers, um, I encourage them to either journal or write to me between...if something comes up about what we've said in the session, to write it down, to explore, but to make some notation, even if its just a log ah, which they don't have to show to anybody but if they chose to bring it then you know, we look at it, or they leave it and I look at it and bring back. I have had one client that I saw for a number of years that wrote beautifully, beautifully and I've kept all those and now years later, got a message from a new therapist she was seeing in another area asking for a specific thing and I was able to put my hands on it and send it. So it turned out to be very helpful, something she had written, even years later. She had done a timeline, that was very helpful.

Rodrigues: Why do you think the act of writing down things that may be painful to us is important?

Luleen Anderson: Well it gives us a...a forum. It gives us a way of expressing it. Which is also...protects you from overwhelming feeling because you use your brain. You've put capital letters, you've put periods, you've put question marks. And so you have that kind of control over the, sometimes horrific, material. But also it reveals sometimes ah, to the writer, things he or she didn't know they felt or thought.

Rodrigues: I'm going to talk a little bit about your public speaking.

Luleen Anderson: Um hum.

Rodrigues: I went onto your website (http://luleenanderson.com) and I noticed that you have many speaking engagements.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: And you've just, in fact, come back from a few of them.

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: And tomorrow you're going to be in...having another engagement at Pomegranate Books.

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: How important is it for you, um, as a writer, as a therapist, to go out into the public, to meet with them, and to talk about your work and share?

Luleen Anderson: Well it's critically important ah, I'm a fairly good speaker, and my goal is to communicate information with people and to respond to their questions ah, in an interchange that's helpful to them and to me. It's critical I think to communicate.

Rodrigues: If you could offer any...and...and I know you have offered many words of advice...but in particular, if you could offer a few words of advice to someone who is perhaps interested in writing, um, but more so in a...in a field that may be...that is not seen as a traditional writer, for example like psychology...

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: ...or, you said at one point you had intended to write about religion...

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: Um, what would those words of advice be?

Luleen Anderson: If you don't have to write, don't. If you do, get busy, write, do not be concerned about where it's going to end up. It'll take...that will take care of itself.

Rodrigues: Good words. And also before we leave, um, you mentioned to me, and I just wanted to talk about this a little bit, that now um, the pressure of off so-to-speak...

Luleen Anderson: Yes.

Rodrigues: ...you're indulging yourself in writing, or in experimenting with writing a novel...

Luleen Anderson: Right.

Rodrigues: How has that been for you as a writer? Has it been very freeing?

Luleen Anderson: Yes, it's been very freeing and its fun. Ah, in...in doing the draft. The difficult part for me is making things up, because I've spent my life trying to get my clients story right, you know, to hear their story. So to make something up is very awkward for me, because I tend to see with my ears. So if I have to say, "oh the candle was dripping wax down the checkered table...," I don't get that. But some readers for novels of course want the so-called scene setting. So that's been a real clung challenge to make up something that isn't there.

Rodrigues: Well I look forward to hopefully reading that one day.

Luleen Anderson: Thank you so much.

Rodrigues: And I thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.

Luleen Anderson: Well thank you so much, I'm sorry for the sniffles with the cold. Ah, I think I got carried away over the weekend in my activities.

Rodrigues: Well it's been a pleasure, thank you.

Luleen Anderson: Thank you so much.

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