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Interview with Neil Hadley, February 15, 2007 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Title:
Interview with Neil Hadley, February 15, 2007
Date:
February 15, 2007
Description:
Interview with Dr. Neil Hadley, Biology professor and former Dean of the Graduate School and Research at the University of North Carolina Wilmington.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Hadley, Neil Interviewer: Riggins, Adina Date of Interview: 2/15/2007 Series: Voices of UNCW Length: 60 minutes

 

Riggins: Hello, my name is Adina Riggins. I'm the archivist here at UNCW. I'm behind the camera. I'm very pleased to welcome to UNCW archives today in Randall Library a guest for our Voices of UNCW Oral History program. Today is February 15, 2007, and our guest today is Dr. Neil Hadley. Please, sir, state your name for the tape, your full name.

Hadley: Neil Hadley.

Riggins: Thank you. That's just to have it for the record. I'm arranging all the equipment here. This is part of our, like I said, Voices of UNCW Oral History program, wherein we interview people who have had a significant impact on the history of the university, through being a professor, or being an administrator, serving in the university in various capacities over long periods of time, and you certainly fit the bill in all of those counts. So, before we get into your UNCW times, can you tell us where were you born and where'd you grow up?

Hadley: Well, thank you, and I appreciate the invite to participate in this, and I hope that some of the information that I share with you will be of value. A Michigander, I grew up in Dearborn, was born in Dearborn, Michigan, and did all my elementary, middle and high schooling experiences, were done in Dearborn. And traveled very little at that time, stayed near the family, did not have a lot of resources, and so we were limited in some of the things that we could do, but did things I think every young guy does in growing up. Played sports in high school, and did well enough in the school so that I was eligible, at least, to go on to college at that point. And still stayed in Michigan; I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do or be at that time, but I started off at Western Michigan University, that would have been in 1959, the fall of 1959. Spent two years there, came back and finished up the last two years at Eastern Michigan University, graduated from there in 1963. The intent, at that time, probably was to, at some point, become a teacher. I had done my student teaching and so forth, but I also started to, at the same time, look into the prospects of going on the graduate school, feeling like I could tell, at that point, that it was going to become a necessity, or something you'd want to have on your record in time. I applied to a few schools, one of which was the University of Colorado in Boulder, simply because, one, I had an aunt and uncle living in Denver, had not been out of the state much to travel, so this would have been an opportunity for me. The other, was down at Florida State, where a high school biology teacher had left the high school, and gone to-- and I had some connection there.

From that point on, it's a lot of serendipity. I think, because at the University of Colorado I was offered a teaching assistant but I didn't really understand the process well enough to understand that yes, you can actually make a go of it, financially, if you become a TA, and I thought I couldn't afford it as an out-of-state student to go there. And the last minute, I think, I got a call from them saying that they-- would I be interested in what they called an NDA- NDEA fellowship, which was a National Defense Education Association fellowship, which, of all things at that time, were designed to provide for more college teachers, because soon thereafter, this certainly became a glut, and it was very difficult to get a job in teaching, but at that time, there was a need for these individuals.

And the fellowship was in Environmental Physiology or Physiologic Ecology, and frankly, I wasn't even thinking in terms of going on, you know, for a PhD, at the time. I knew very little about it. I wasn't terribly even familiar with the topic, but I think what had happened, is one of the recipients, for some reason, turned it down at the last minute, and they had to fill it or lose it-- and so here, fate smiled on me at this point, and I did accept it. And so, I left Michigan at that time, and drove out, and began my academic graduate career at the University of Colorado, which would have been in 1963.

Riggins: That's a good introduction. Going back to your undergraduate days, Eastern Michigan is-- Western Michigan is Kalamazoo.

Hadley: Western Michigan is Kalamazoo. Eastern Michigan is Ypsilanti, which is right from Ann Arbor, there. And so it was a little bit closer to home, although that didn't probably have much to do with it. Part of it, was a chance to go back and play basketball and baseball at one institution. And so, that-- I took advantage of that, but I kept with grades up and the eligibility up, so that I still was able to get through it in the four years that I had. And most schools, you know, served me well, I thought, in terms of providing the background that I needed to run.

Riggins: You started at Western Michigan.

Hadley: Start at Western, and--

Riggins: And you played sports there, too?

Hadley: I played freshman basketball there, but I came back and finished up playing at Eastern and in both baseball and basketball.

Riggins: Okay, so that probably worked out. You had scholarships?

Hadley: They paid a-- you got some perks in terms of dormitory. I stayed in the dormitory there, and they allowed some perks there, for that, and some cost for the food, and room and board and so forth, but they didn't have a formal scholarship. And I wasn't frankly that good of an athlete, or that much of a contributor to the team, so-- and with that, it ended, certainly my college athletic career. I think, by the time the senior year came along, it was very clear that I needed to do other things.

Riggins: [Inaudible] Science and--

Hadley: Science was it, I guess, yes.

Riggins: And your undergraduate degree was Biology?

Hadley: It was in biology, with probably a co-major, and maybe in chemistry, and also with a teaching certificate so that I had done my student teaching at one of the junior highs in Ypsilanti, and still felt that was probably what I was going to do until this sort of 11th hour opportunity opened up at the University of Colorado, and that sort of sent me on a very different track.

Riggins: Now it was to be, as far as you knew, you were starting a Master's program?

Hadley: Well, no, the whole point of this was to provide for doctorates in the discipline, so that in going out there, I was actually able to bypass my Master's degree. You did enough work, so that at a certain point you probably earned to the equivalent, but I don't actually have a Master's degree. I have a Bachelor's degree and a PhD, because it was bypassed. And again, if the situation when I went out there, not terribly well-prepared, but I became mentored by a fine gentleman scholar, whose interests were in birds and insects, and he took me sort of under his wing, and we decided on a project that would involve looking at nesting site selections in subalpine birds. The front range of the Rockies is right there so that was very handy. And he too, was under a sort of tight schedule in that he had planned to retire in 1966, and so that it was important for me to finish this work in order to be able to, you know, leave and still have someone there to-- for the final defense of the thesis and so forth, at the same time. So, everything sort of became sort of rushed, and to get through and in the process, you know, I probably, and I did; actually got through in the three years, which was very quick for a PhD, but in--

Riggins: It's like you finished in time for him to retire.

Hadley: Yeah, but in the same token, made me not terribly well-prepared, either. I felt that, you know, at that point, I probably had the equivalent of maybe what a Master's degree should have provided me, in terms of experience and so forth, but here I found myself with a doctorate, and ready to go out into academia now, as an assistant professor. So, again, it was a situation where some circumstances evolved that I happened to be part of, and took advantage of these. And I felt, probably, after two or three years on the job as my first position, which was Assistant Professor at Arizona State University, that I probably, at that point, truly had earned a doctorate. It took me that long, really to understand I think, the concept of research scholarship; blending it with teaching at that level and so forth. So--

Riggins: The kind of research projects--

Hadley: Yeah, I was, you know, being very honest. You know, when I left and went down and accepted this position-- and by the way, that's another type of example of serendipity, because back in 1966, when you were looking for a position, you just flooded the market with resumes. It's not like today, where you see a particular job and you apply for that. You just sent them out all over, and hoping that someone would have an opening and they might contact you. And I sent out a lot of my-- I flooded them all over, you know, and I didn't have a lot of luck. I interviewed at Southern Illinois, probably with one of three there, was not offered that position. Western Washington was another school that was interesting. Of all the schools that I sent resumes to, only Arizona State never acknowledged getting it or wrote me back, and I thought, "Well, that was odd," because I had gone down there in the previous springs, because we used to take field trips in the spring from Colorado to warm up and go down to New Mexico. So, we would pass through Phoenix, and I saw that campus, and I thought, "Gosh that would be a nice place to work, someday." But they didn't call me. But again, at late in the spring, and I had no job, and I wasn't sure where I was going to go or what I was going to do; I got a call from the department chairman there, indicating, "Will you still be interested in a position in physiology that we have open up here?" And after learning about what happened, I think that they had three candidates for the job. The one person they really liked for the job turned them down. The second person, they regarded as a jerk, and they had to take me, because if they didn't, they would lose the line. So again, sort of a unique set of circumstances that sort of fell in my lap. I had gone down there and interviewed for the job, in-- I mean, I did the best I can, but I think it was apparent to them, and apparent to me, that, you know, I probably could use some additional training, and so forth. I had no publications at that time. To apply for a position today without publications of post doc experience, would be-- is unheard of, but back then, that was not the case, and--

Riggins: Did you teach, or you didn't have to teach, because of your fellowship?

Hadley: Well, that's another thing. I had varied levels, not a TA there. I think they required that you teach one semester to satisfy the teaching obligation that one should have, and I did that there, and probably did okay on that part, but I didn't have a lot of teaching experience, even at that level. So, I went to Arizona State University, and you know, felt I could handle the teaching in time, but was really quite concerned about the research. It was getting to the point, where research was becoming a more integral part of that campus, there. And I knew that I would have to do this in order to probably stay on, and so forth. And very honestly, you know, I was concerned, you know: What would constitute research? Projects that I might be interested in, you know, and just all the things that go about in conducting setting up labs and doing these and publishing. These were all things I sort of had to learn on the seat of my pants once I went down there. But I did, and began in 1956 as an assistant professor at Arizona State University in Tempe, and--

Riggins: You were all of, like, 26.

Hadley: I was 24 years old when I started. Yeah, probably one of the youngest PhD's, again, not well-prepared, but nonetheless young, chronologically.

Riggins: You also could teach grad students, I suppose.

Hadley: Yes, and I had grad-- and that's an interesting point, because some of the-- my first graduate student that I had, was older than I was, and frankly, knew more physiology than I did, as well. But there were some things always, and I think this carried through throughout my career there, things that all I could contribute maybe, where they didn't have it. So, we complemented one another. I always, for some reason, had good writing skills. I could communicate very well in writing, and so I could help these students, you know, with their papers, and then help them prepare their dissertation, their theses and so forth. In time I became more comfortable, in terms of understanding the research focus of these programs. There was a graduate student when I first went there that said, "You want to, you know, give me some help on a project here?" And that sort of introduced me to a lot of the work I ended up doing with scorpions down there. So, there were some key people that helped, you know, sort of fill in some gaps in my own background. And when I did this the more-- and once you publish a paper and you sort of went through it one time, you sort of saw what was needed, and you-- frankly you, you know, you liked to see your name in print. That was good, you know, and so you started to do more and more of that, and then you learn sort of to play the game. You know, and because I had decent writing skills, I was able to compete for grants at NSF and get funded. So, once you get a funded program, then it starts to mushroom, you know, and things grow and evolve, and in time, you know, it became a very successful program for probably up to 30 years, the time that I was there. We had funding, and I had a lot of students come through, and I think that the end, certainly, the work that was being done on adaptations of organisms to the desert, and particularly with arthropods, insects, and arachnids, was a lab that was known worldwide.

Riggins: You got to work in a very different environment. Each time, you know, Colorado, Arizona, if you did any research in Michigan--

Hadley: It was interesting, because in Colorado, where I worked on high elevation birds, and did that as my dissertation, birds were the only group of animals that I never published in again, after leaving the PhD program there; everything else but birds. And yet here was-- I had the strongest background in birds and so forth. But when I went down into the desert, one of the things-- that was simply logistics; it was difficult to house birds. You know, you had to get cages for them, and special-- because they didn't have these, really, and hence, much easier to hold onto little beetles in the desert, scorpions and so forth. They required only a little plastic boxes, some light, minimal amounts of food and they did very nicely. And so, that and the fact that a lot of the things that have been done looking at adaptations of birds and mammals, had not been looked at in some of these terrestrial invertebrate groups. And so it was an open area, something that I could move into, and address some of these questions, and that sort of started along the way.

Riggins: So, etymology in that area was still new?

Hadley: We came-- etymology-- although I was never an etymologist, and you know, I was never trained as insects. I was not one that ever collected lots of bugs or anything like that. What I did, was to use insects and arachnids as models to answer questions that I was interested in, more than the interest in the animals per se. Although, you know, certainly, they became this way over time, and then I became more and more competent in the field of etymology. But I was more a environmental physiologist or physiological ecologist, they call it, just where we looked at how these animals deal with thermal and water and metabolic relations under very stressful, hot, dry desert conditions. And I did go back, in time, and work on insects at high elevations. So that-- and I went back into Colorado, probably beginning in the late '70's and all of the '80's and early '90's, and I worked there in summertimes and then did high elevation studies there on insects. So, I did revisit the area, but I never did with a feather.

Riggins: Well, then you came here, and there was already a bird guy, I guess-- Dr. Parnell?

Hadley: Yeah, you know, after that time there in-- and during that time, you know, I have a nice cohort of students, have all went on and became very successful in their own right. And so that by the early 1990's, even at Arizona State University, I had started to move a little ways from a strict professor track. I did some administrative work there. I became the associate dean of the graduate school and also assistant vice president for research there, and that sort of then ultimately led to the moving away from Arizona State University and taking the position at UNCW, which I believe was in 1995. So, after about 30 years at Arizona State, that's when this transition was made.

Riggins: Wow. Okay. I didn't realize you were there for so long, but I guess you came, you succeeded Dr. Bolen here?

Hadley: Yes, the position, at that time, was for Dean of the Graduate School and Research, and so that the individual they were looking for was to oversee both of these offices. This was a nice match for me, one, because I had been intimately involved in graduate education as a faculty mentor there; been on the graduate council at Arizona State University, and been in the graduate school there as associate dean, so that I had not only an understanding of graduate education within my own discipline, but within, you know, across the university there. And of course, by that time, Arizona had evolved into-- Arizona State had evolved into a major research institution, so that transition during those 30 years was rather dramatic, and with PhD programs and lots of funding, also because I'd had lots of funding, I'd had lots of interactions with National Science Foundation and some other funding agencies; I had visited with them. And so, what they were looking at for the position here, was somebody who could then help them move in that similar direction that maybe earlier, Arizona State was in. And so, when I came here, what I saw really, was an institution that was very much like ASU was back in the late '60's and early '70's.

Riggins: Really? In 1995 or so?

Hadley: Yup, and so that, you know, that transition, and I saw what was needed there to make that transition successful, so what I was trying to do here, was to, you know, contribute to what I could to help this institution also make its transition, because when I came in 1995, the graduate program, which was well-established and it was a Masters programm and Eric and other deans, I think there had been one or two before him, had certainly done a good job in putting in some of the standards and the policies, so that I didn't come in, you know, with no graduate council. These things, these were there. But what was not there was a breadth of graduate programs to represent all the academic units on this campus. There were opportunities there, and then certainly in the research office, you know, really, to try to broaden the amount of research scholarship that is taking place on the campus, and to seek help, then, seek funding to support these initiatives. And so, those were the sort of the two goals that I had in mind, in accepting this position.

Riggins: Now, you were looking for something completely different, or did you know you were looking for something, and then this position kind of appeared?

Hadley: Well, I, you know, I had looked, at that time, and I-- there had been some other positions. There were some other offers made, but I thought this was really the best match for me. It was at a school where I thought I could contribute. I thought I would not be overwhelmed by some of the expectations. At the same time, I thought that I, because of my own experiences, that I could contribute to see these things grow in the way that I think, at that time, the job description, you know, and the expectations, were stated. When I came here, in 1995, UNCW was as it is today, very much a strictly undergraduate teaching institution. Its primary focus was on teaching. It did have a graduate program, but to be very honest with you, the graduate program, I think, was not viewed in a sense that I had seen graduate programs, the sense that many felt a graduate program was a competing entity with the undergraduate program, actually detracted from this, took some resources, took faculty's time. If you were going to be and have a graduate program, it's a labor-intensive endeavor. And so, faculty that were participants in the graduate programs took time, took their time to do research and mentor students. This was time away, maybe, from undergraduate teaching expectations, and things that they routinely did. So, for many, you know, that the undergraduate, or the graduate program, was not viewed as one that was, as I saw it, a complementary and integral part, and almost a necessity, in order for the undergraduate program to flourish. And that was the message that I tried to convey, you know, that not only is it a complementary program, but it's absolutely essential if you're going to have a truly strong undergraduate program, because the two complement one another and build upon each other.

I think, for the most part, during my tenure in the administration here, I was able to convince the majority, but not all, of the people, of this relationship. Certainly, the funding part increased dramatically. I don't recall all the figures, but when I left that office, it was probably three- or fourfold increase in the yearly amount of funding that took place, and a lot more faculty from areas were getting support for their research or scholarly activities than was true in the past. Up until that point probably, most of the people, the funding had come almost entirely in the sciences, and particularly in marine sciences, because of the affiliation, the location of the institution here. And one of my goals was certainly to try to broaden this, and I think we were reasonably successful there.

Riggins: So across various disciplines, you were increasing-- ?

Hadley: Yeah, and again, the same thing, you know, in broadening some of the graduate programs. When I came, you know, I saw where there was certainly-- there were strengths in certain programs that were already on board, but there were some areas where we had very good faculty scholars and they probably had undergraduate programs that were strong enough, and there was an interest and a market for students in these areas. I can give you just a couple of examples, of one of a Masters program in Social Work. It was certainly ready, by that time. Their undergraduate program had had full accreditation. There was a lot of student interest in it. There was really some demand from the accrediting agency because of expectations for licensure that you needed to have beyond a baccalaureate degree, to be in this discipline. So, that was one program that was brought on board. Worked very closely with Dr. Nelson Reid who was the chairman of that department at that time and who was, you know, certainly one of the key members of that department and that program, to help bring that to pass. Another, was in Creative Writing. There was a Master's program in English, but there was not a professional Masters program, a Master of Fine Arts, in Creative Writing, and yet there were some excellent creative writing faculty here that had national reputations. And working closely with Phillip Gerard, we were able to institute that program in time. And that one has simply blossomed. I mean, the number of majors: it got to the point where I almost had to go back to them and say, "Hey, you know, we need to put a cap on some of these, where we're getting too many new students in, more than probably what I felt some of these faculty should be mentoring, at any one time." But it was great to see it grow.

One of the things, also, I felt strongly about, was a need to have some graduate opportunities for people who are non-traditional students who want to come back to school, maybe for personal enrichment, or maybe to think about a career change or something like this. And so with very much the support of Michael Wentworth, who became the ultimate director of the Master of Arts and Liberal Studies, the MALS program, and that, too, has just blossomed and grown with a tremendous number of majors in that program, and largely, I think, because of Michael's effort to make that a successful as that program has been.

And then, I think the final thing that I-- that had a part in that, was bringing to this campus the very first PhD program. And that happened in my own discipline, or at least in the biological sciences, and if ultimately, the PhD, after a real struggle, because of relationships that had existed between ourselves and the two Research One institutions in the marine science arena, and then sort of the reluctance to allow still another PhD program in that particular area to evolve at another institution. It was not an easy chore to bring one, but I think, just at '94, '95, it came on board as a PhD in Marine Biology, and it is going well.

Riggins: Yeah, I know it was a struggle. Was it 2004?

Hadley: Oh, 2004, excuse me, yes.

Riggins: One of the first students I knew-- is there any other PhD programs in Marine Biology in the state?

Hadley: There's not right now, not in Marine Biology. The other PhD program, and this was one of the things that we use as an argument, you know, "This is not a PhD program in marine science; this is a program in Marine Biology." Now, we have a center for marine science, and in time it would be my thinking that there would be possibly a second one in marine science. So far, that has not come to pass, but that's probably the only other one that is there. As far as other PhD programs, and again, I've been out of the graduate school for awhile, and you really need to ask Dean Roer what is on the burners here, but probably in time, I thought there might be one in Clinical Psychology. And again, they had a very strong faculty there, and it, again, it's one of those where licensure requirements are going to almost require that people practicing in that area of Psychology have training at the doctoral level. Education might be the other one, and there's a number of disciplines within the school of education where there are strengths that they might do, maybe in leadership studies or something like this, where there could be a doctoral program there, and there I would encourage to be a PhD program with a research-- with a research focus, and not an EDD program. And again, I've not kept up to see how these possibilities are doing today.

Riggins: I guess I was asking, also, are there other PhD programs in Marine Biology in the state, or do we have the only one?

Hadley: We have the only PhD in Marine Biology. There are other PhD programs in Marine Science, okay, and these exist at NC State, University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, and East Carolina. Each of these programs are a little bit different than ours; they have a different focus, a little bit different design, different emphasis, but nonetheless, they were viewed by them as ones where we were going to possibly be stepping on their toes, or-- well, they've held the position that PhD programs, if they had their way, would not, of course, be at any institutions other than the flagship and the Research One institutions. And so it was a battle, yes.

Riggins: Did it rival anything you had done before with its difficulty?

Hadley: I think, in terms of an administrative standpoint, it was certainly the biggest challenge that I faced, trying to convince these other schools, get them to come on board, also to convince the administration, the higher administration, the general consul for the UNC system, that this was-- the faculty here really deserved this. We had the facilities; we had the Marine Science Center. We had a history of very successful Masters program in Marine Biology. You know, we were, we had really met all the criteria that I felt, as a graduate dean, that was needed in order to make the program fly. And then, when we had to face these, you know, we got good support from Scott Quackenbush, who was the department chair at that time, and faculty like Bob Roer and Dr. Dillaman, and others that were integral players in this program-- Joe Pawlik-- all made very helpful contributions to this. We had to go jump all kind of hoops to get through it, rewrite the PhD application many times in order to get it through, but finally this was successful.

Riggins: There was some financial dealings, too, wasn't there?

Hadley: Well, yeah, I mean, when you do this, of course, not only is a doctoral program labor-intensive, but it's a costly endeavor. And that meant that they would have to promise some faculty lines in order to make this come to pass, also some resources to support this. And this is one of the things that, you know, that was so badly needed in graduate education when I came here, was one: more TA's for students. We didn't have near enough teaching assistants to cover some of the teaching expectations for the undergraduate program. Secondly, the stipends were abysmally low, and so we've worked very hard to elevate these stipends during my time here.

Riggins: How do you do that? You just-- ?

Hadley: Well, you go around to the other schools, you determine what they are paying and so forth, and you see what the national market is for these, and you make your case to the general administration that these stipends are too low. And, you know, and I think we were able to do this. I mean, it was clearly the case, you have to convince, certainly the own administration here, you know, that they want to move in this direction, but we finally did. And slowly, these came, these grew in numbers and so that by the time I left that office, I felt that we probably had enough TA's to meet the needs at that time. The stipends were still way too low, you know, in some cases, thousands of dollars below what other schools are offering students. So, this was always a problem in recruiting for students, because we could never quite offer them the same financial package that some of the other schools were offering, but they did get elevated in time, and with this, hand in hand, this problem of out-of-state tuition, we needed tuition remission. We didn't have near enough, and a lot of the students that would come here wanted to come here from out of state, and often times, these were the very best students and the ones that we wanted to bring onboard, turned us down because we could not waive the tuition for these individuals and have them pay only in-state tuition. And this was a central administration requirement and made it very difficult for us to compete, and so over time, we were able to get a lot more out-of-state tuition waivers for these students. And so that helped bring in stronger students, and of course, we got a number of these when the PhD program came on board.

Riggins: And what about the research side? I mean, I know it's connected to the graduate school, but you worked also with getting more outside funding for faculty, various disciplines you were saying.

Hadley: Yeah, we spent a lot of time trying to figure out ways to provide more-- to create a research environment, I guess, for the faculty, to allow them to really reach their potential-- and in some cases it meant arguing for reduced teaching loads for faculty that had funding, in order that they can devote time and meet the obligations that the funding agency expected of them. Certainly, in some cases, it meant just getting pieces of equipment, capital equipment, large scale items that were shared, that we couldn't afford, and that our capital budget at the university, you know, certainly couldn't provide for, but were absolutely essential if research was going to be done. You know, there were a lot of areas that we moved more into molecular biology, looking at the cell, cell functions and molecular genetics and so forth. We didn't have a lot of the centrifuges, some of the scanners and so forth, densitometers and things that are-- that go hand in hand with that kind of research. And so we were able to get some large pieces of equipment through some funding, special funding programs. We set up some research centers that helped make it more of a focal point for some of these--

Riggins: In what departments?

Hadley: The centers in Social Work.

Riggins: Oh, right.

Hadley: We gave a center there. We had centers-- I'm trying to think right now, where-- there's smaller centers within departments that were set up, that-- where the faculty had a-- it's sort of an internal place to focus, and where they could then really develop skills, bring in visiting scientists. We associated with the center and so forth within these academic institutions, academic departments, and so forth. So, it all went hand-in-hand, and then I think with that, you know, just getting larger grants, encouraging the faculty to put in for larger grants to support students on grants, which, you know, helped take some of the pressure off of local budgets and the state agencies, you know, in terms of providing money for these students, by having faculty pick up people who had been TA's and hire them as RA's on their grants. So, there was a lot more development there. And we did a lot more outreach in the research area and as well as set up, you know, programs to make sure we were in compliance with all the federal requirements for animal care and usage, human subject research. This was all part of that research office. And a lot of us, you know, we had lots of workshops and on grant writing and so forth, and how to, you know, present yourself, present your ideas to these funding agencies and brought down-- bought down program directors, and in, heads of agencies, to speak to faculty here in order to, you know, stimulate them.

Riggins: I interviewed Dr. Bolen, too, when he stepped down from teaching, because he went back to teaching, and he commented about setting up the graduate faculty, and so, did any changes in that setting-- ?

Riggins: We, that was in place. What we did on it, was to revisit some of the criteria for membership on the graduate faculty, to make it a little bit more rigorous and to make sure that it was reviewed and having some expectations that the faculty indeed would indeed do what they were required, in order to either become a member of the graduate faculty or, in time, you know, have their applications renewed. But no, that was one of the things that certainly was in place, and that was a very important part in the graduate faculty-- and it was not one that I'm sure Eric, when he started doing this, you know, had some people that were opposed to this idea, because it's seen as sort of a special class of faculty, or sort of a caste, and so you're starting to get this, you know, and you have faculty-- and then that are teaching faculty, and then you have others who are research faculty, who are allowed to mentor students. And oftentimes this lead to some schisms within departments and so forth, and some unhappy faculty there, and the same thing happened as we went into the PhD program. There were those that might be able to mentor students at one level, but maybe not at the PhD level, because the criteria for graduate faculty for the PhD is more rigorous than it is for the Masters program.

Riggins: Is that just for one department, now? Or is it-- ?

Hadley: Well, it's only one right now, because that's the only program, but this is the case. You know, at Arizona State University, every faculty member there could be part of a Masters program, but you had to be a member of the PhD faculty in order to mentor a graduate student for a doctoral program. Here, to be involved in graduate education, you have to be a member of the graduate faculty. So, it's an important designation to have at an institution. It got some-- it's carried some baggage, but you know, these are things that-- This is part of the evolution, this transition that I talked about earlier. Now, these things happen, and then a lot of it, you know, is not without some teeth gnashing and some complaining and some resistance, but it happens, either way. You know, this is part of the natural transition in academia as an institution grows from a strictly undergraduate to a graduate-undergraduate balance, to one where there is a very strong graduate program with doctoral programs. And I think that this institution is well on its way, if that's the direction they decide that they want to go. They certainly have the facility, they have the research scholars, the faculty, and can get the quality students here to be successful if they want to pursue that particular direction.

Riggins: All right. You mentioned various departments that you worked with to get other degrees; I don't know if you mentioned the professional schools, education, business, nursing.

Hadley: All these were, you know, I met-- when I came on board with each of the deans and we would go through it. These were professional programs, and a lot of times, professional programs see themselves as separate from the rest of the graduate programs, and so forth. You know, they see that they can be independent of graduate programs as a blanket, sort of, entity within an institution, because they have certain criteria of their own that are mandated by professional accrediting agencies and a lot of them-- So, it was a task, I think, for me to convince these deans at the time, that we were not trying in any way to restrict them and so forth, but we wanted to make sure that they were meeting all the expectations that any faculty, you know, that they were a part of the university graduate program, you know, and they weren't going to get special treatment but they certainly were not going to be ignored, in that I would do everything I could to support their growth in professional programs. And so, that-- and I think I can look back and safely say that this is happened. I think the programs in the School of Business, the Master of Accountancy, Master of Accountancy and the MBA program. Both of these, I think, have become significantly strengthened without really altering their format. You know, they still serve the students in a way that they did before, but I think the programs themselves are stronger, a little bit more flexible, perhaps more rigorous because of some of the expectations that were not necessarily imposed on us, but were certainly encouraged for them.

And again, you know, they bought into this. They've sought funding. They've developed a scholarship in these areas. Education, nursing, both of these go the same way. Nursing was a very beginning program. At the time, we had to go through some tough accreditations and get everything on board, but over time, you know, they too, have grown to a much stronger program, and--

Riggins: Did you work with Perry Beaumar?

Hadley: Perry Beaumar and Virginia were two, worked very closely together with them, and both of those individuals had come from place where there was a research focus.

Riggins: Right. Like you. Yeah.

Hadley: Two of their program, okay, and so that it was not so much me having to convince them that this is how we want their program to look, but for them to, you know, communicate to their faculty that, you know, this is where we are now and if we want to move on beyond this, we're going to have to kind of, you know, rethink what our goals and objectives are for these programs. And I think, again, this was a struggle. They were limited by some facilities and space and so forth, and there had to be this transition where some of the older faculty move on and are replaced by individuals ultimately that come with that kind of mindset. And they've done that well, and certainly, education has-- continues to, I think, be a one of the, certainly the strongest of the professional programs because of the primary focus of the institution, with this teaching orientation.

Riggins: Right, and it was the first graduate program, or first Masters programs, I remember. Well, I interviewed the Hayes last spring, and--

Hadley: Both were here when I was here, and they were very helpful. They were a good transitional type of faculty. They had seen the early stages, and they had been here long enough to appreciate what was needed, and I've worked with both in terms of them-- on Graduate Council, particularly, in trying to get them, and to support what some of the initiatives we wanted to see the school of education move into. And both certainly did that well.

Riggins: So, the graduate council that's chaired by the department president?

Hadley: Well, this was a point. You know, it came up, you know: "Who should chair the Graduate Council?" Should it be chaired by a faculty member, or should it be chaired by the graduate dean? And this was a point of contention. My feeling was that the Graduate Council should be chaired by the Dean of the Graduate School, because he or she really knows, more, the issues than any faculty member would have, because, if a faculty member do it, I would have to spend all my time filling in the faculty member, you know, "Here are the problems. Here is the focal point. This is what we need to consider. Here are the arguments for this. Here are the arguments against this, and so forth." So, we set up some provisions. I remember in the bylaws that allowed for the person to serve in this capacity given the approval, periodic review of the graduate dean's performance as leading a graduate council, and then set up provisions so that allowed for elected membership of graduate faculty to serve in this capacity for fixed terms. And so the Graduate Council was very important to me, because one, there was nothing that I could really propose or say or do until I had their blessing, and this was just simple graduate policies to the proposing of new programs. They had to review each of these programs, and they made very useful, you know, suggestions on strengthening these and things that, you know, you're not always aware if you don't see everything, of course, when you're looking at this, some other kind of views on this program where it might be a potential competing program with one that's already on board, or may prevent us from having a similar program down the road. These things all had to be taken into account, of course. And so that the council became a very good arm for me to use. I mean, I relied heavily on them for their expertise and for their suggestions, and yet with their support I was-- it gave me some clout when I needed to go to the higher administration, because it wasn't just Neil who was proposing it; this is what the graduate council has voted. So, yes.

Riggins: Representing their peers and so yeah, and it continues to be a very active group.

Hadley: Yeah, I'm sure it's very active, yes. It would have to be, in order for the graduate program to flourish.

Riggins: Oh, definitely. Well, now, did you step down in 2004?

Hadley: 2002, I believe. I was there-- I recall that I was there, right up until the time that John Cavanaugh left, and--

Riggins: Yeah, that was '02.

Hadley: Yeah, stayed at that time. I stayed, so that during that transition until his replacement was found, that I would oversee the Graduate School and the research office, then, and then let the new provost come on board, and then a whatever changes he or she might want to do. Well, as it turned out Paul Hosier stayed in the capacity, or became the provost, and so that, you know, things that had been in place, more or less, just continued on and so forth. But I believe it was in 2002, after seven years, I did step down. Certainly, I've always been one that felt that the administrators should have a fixed term appointment. Five years, frankly, I think is an adequate time to establish agenda and see it through. In my case, I stayed on probably two years beyond that, because one, to get the PhD program on board, it took longer than that, and there was, at that time, some loose ends that needed to be tied up and so forth. But by the seventh year, I felt that I had done what I probably could do. I thought if I would have stayed on, it would be even more of a management type of tenure at that point. It was going to go into a period of time where I saw there would have to be some consolidation of programs, let them become strengthened and so forth. And I thought it was just a good time for me to step aside and get some fresh input into both offices.

Riggins: So, it would be more management as opposed to building or [inaudible].

Hadley: Well, I don't think-- for example, since that time there's been very few new programs. I mean, maybe one, one or two, possibly, that have come on board, but, you know, resources became more limited again. There were policy changes at general administration that sort of put the cap on the growth in terms of the graduate programs here and things like that. So, you know, it just was time for me to go back.

Riggins: And you went back to the classroom?

Hadley: I went back to the Biology department. I really thought, my plans initially, was that by the time I step down there, I'd been an academic for a long enough time that I really thought that that would be it for me. I would just simply retire and do something else after that time. But I found out there was some changes in my personal life and so forth, and that I had to stay on longer, if nothing else, for some financial considerations, sort of build up some assets again. And so, I did go back to the department, and they were very gracious to me. Scott Quackenbush was the chair at the time, and just pretty much let me just come back and be on my own. He never bothered me, or there were almost times I wished he would have come by and said, "How are you doing, Neil?" you know. But coming back was a real challenge, because it had been a number of years since I'd been in the classroom. The discipline had changed a little, but certainly the pedagogy of teaching had dramatically changed, where everything now was taught with PowerPoint. Everything, your lectures, were expected to be online. There was this whole new level of technology that I had not used before.

Riggins: Really? Yeah.

Hadley: I mean, the last time I had taught the courses that I was expected to teach in the Biology department was probably back in the late '80s, even early '90s, and it was very much the sort of blackboard chalk, you know, type of, you know, pace back and forth in front of the class, and so forth. And so that when I came back, it was an eye-opening experience.

Riggins: How did you realize, or you just could tell that it had changed, or did it come up, talking to other professors?

Hadley: Well, yeah, I mean, I had, you know, sort of tool up again on the discipline. That wasn't as bad because, you know, that sort of stays with you a little bit longer. But I had never given any lectures where I've used PowerPoint slides, so that I had to take a lot of this information and convert these into PowerPoint slides. And I found myself just spending an enormous amount of time, you know, just preparing the lectures from that standpoint, maybe at the expense of doing a good job and communicating information or getting updated on the thing, making sure that I had everything the way these things should be. So, certainly that first year was probably one of the most difficult and the hardworking years that I can ever recall. I mean, it was far worse than my first semester as assistant professor.

Riggins: Really?

Hadley: Trying to get back in there and do these things.

Riggins: Wow.

Hadley: And then it took, you know, even a couple of years after then to finally get a feeling of comfortableness in terms of just: What is the role of some of these newer technologies, and which work well, which ones don't work so well?

Riggins: In teaching?

Hadley: Yeah.

Riggins: Well, yeah, because PowerPoint now, you know, I mean, it can get pretty dry to--

Hadley: Well, PowerPoint, yeah, and I think one of the things that I've learned from it, is that it's a wonderful tool in terms of putting on some figure, complex drawings, some animations, that would take you forever to do. Maybe with an overhead, wouldn't have been nearly as effective or to draw these on the board. But in the process, I think that the students sort of lose their capacity to follow as carefully as they do when they are taking notes; they lose their note-taking skills because of this and so forth.

Riggins: There's so much going on, here.

Hadley: Yeah, I don't think that-- I always still, and I feel to this point, that I do a better job of communicating information if I can walk them through it on the board. And so today, I will do as much as I can on the board before I have to turn to a slide, even though if I have good slides on this, they can still see these slides and so forth, as they're all online they can go back and look at the entire lecture. But I just feel that the teaching efficiencies are better for me if I can still, you know, kind of do one-on-one, and talk about that rather than having a lot of these things simply show up as animated bullets that show up on a screen or figures there that they are sort of overwhelmed with.

Riggins: And yeah, they get more out of it, too.

Hadley: So, anyway, but that goes on today and then we're in to the last semester, right now.

Riggins: Right, were you doing Phase or not?

Hadley: Yeah, I did Phase. I came back until the time that I was eligible for Phase retirement, and then I decided to do just two years of Phase. And that's been a wise decision, and I would recommend that to anybody. When I was in administration and so forth, thinking, "Why would anybody, after all this time, want to still, you know, keep teaching full-time when they could retire?" But it is a nice program in the sense that-- and particularly the way they handled it for me. The department chairman's Scott Quackenbush, and now Martin Posey; both of them structured my Phase retirement so I could do all my teaching in one semester.

Riggins: And you chose the Spring?

Hadley: And so I would teach in the Spring, but be off all Fall. So, by the time I would be done in the Spring, I had basically all Summer and Fall to be off and still being paid half a salary, and then, with a full teaching load in the Spring, which has been very reasonable for me. And so I'm not-- you know, I've enjoyed this. I could have done it for a third year, but, you know, at this point, it's enough.

Riggins: You want to leave while you're still having fun?

Hadley: Well, they always say, you know, "The trick is not to play the game too long." And for me, I feel very much like I'm already in extra innings, but the outcome is well-known. So, this is it. This is the last semester, May 8th, but who's counting. This should be it, and that will be the final and get it graded by that time, and that's it.

Riggins: You get the grades in, and--

Hadley: That will be the end of the academic-- as far as I can foresee. Now, you don't know. Again, like I said, one of the things I've learned through all this: that no matter how well you prepare, how well you try to plan and do, ultimately, what happens to you is largely determined by fate.

Riggins: Serendipity?

Hadley: Yeah, and so that, in my case, this has been clearly been the case, and I think what you do to prepare for these things, and how you might take advantage of opportunities that come your way, ultimately decide what does happen. But a lot of the things, you know, just simply happened, that I had no control over. You know, just things that fell in place or didn't fall in place. Sometimes fate's kind; sometimes fate isn't. In my case, it has certainly been more of a blessing than a hardship, so I'm very thankful for that.

Riggins: Well, if you don't mind, I'd like us to take a break here, and maybe we'll do a few minutes on the next tape so I can ask you just a couple of questions we may not have gotten to.

Hadley: Sure.

(Tape Change)

Riggins: All right. We're back with Tape 2, speaking to Dr. Neil Hadley about your career in academia, UNCW and other places-- and we're finishing up with your return to the classroom in 2002. And you've been teaching there since then. Is that right?

Hadley: Yes.

Riggins: And doing about one semester. Have you been working with the graduate students there?

Hadley: Only in the capacity of having taught graduate courses there. I've had some graduate courses there. I've not served on any-- I've served on some student committees and so forth, but not in a mentor position. I did not try to reestablish a working lab, or research at that point. I felt that that part of my life was probably, was finished there. Instead, I could contribute in the classroom, and by working with some of these students in terms of being on committees for students if they were in areas that I felt I had something where I could contribute to their work.

Riggins: Oh, under thesis committee?

Hadley: Yeah. So, I've done that. Instead I've you know, I've focused a lot with the undergraduates, you know, and certainly helping them understand some basic core courses that are critical to their careers, I think, if they're going to go into the life sciences. And one of the things I've taught is in senior seminars classes each semester. And these are designed to validate a student's oral communication skills, and raise the ability to go to various sources to put together a research paper or presentation, and then make an oral presentation to their peers in class. And so I spend a lot of time on an individual basis, trying to strengthen their writing and speaking skills, which is badly needed for many of these students at this point. They've seemingly had little experience doing this, or little really academic training that would allow them to develop good expository writing skills or good speaking skills. And so I've invested a lot of time trying to do what I can at this sort of late hour for these students.

Riggins: Right, that's needed if they go on--

Hadley: That's right--

Riggins: --And graduate--

Hadley: In anything, you know, they're going to have to write papers or speak in front of PTA groups, or employees, or counsels or something, and so they need to develop these skills to be successful.

Riggins: I know it's hard to generalize. But what have been your observations of students now, compared to throughout your career?

Hadley: Well, there has been a, certainly a dramatic change, and I saw this, probably in the early, late '80s early '90s, a sort of change in the students, in terms of their focus, in terms of their priorities, their motivation. And I see this now. I mean, I am frustrated many times by effort, or at least their understanding or seemingly their motivation or enthusiasm, sometimes, for the subject. And even though it is their major, performance on exams, ability to think outside the box, to employ critical thinking skills, to be able to integrate information and synthesize this, to answering questions or developing a hypothesis, seemingly are not strong in today's students. And we've had a lot of emails circulated recently in the department, of similar frustration by other faculty who, you know, just question how the students are not as bright as they were before. Certainly the SAT exams and other exams indicate that is not the case. But I think it's general-- the feeling is that they've just grown up in a very different type of learning environment, where everything is on a much shorter scale with the internet, with the technologies, with cell phones, with libraries, with ways to just get quick blips of information, very quickly, very superficially, without really maybe understanding the full depth of anything. And I think this has-- shows up, certainly, in the development of some of their writing and their communication skills, because I certainly, you know, don't have an answer for what I'm seeing in the classroom today.

Riggins: But any strengths? I mean, do you find they're sophisticated with technology?

Hadley: Well, they are with technology, yes. They are very good at, probably, weaving their way through the internet and employing some of these things. I mean they know how to give Powerpoint presentations. They've all put together slide presentations, and they can probably blend in video streams and things like this. They are very good at that. You know, this is probably to be expected. But I think they've lost some of the other skills that would serve them well, if they had these. And again--

Riggins: Or that mathematics--

Hadley: Well, I think--

Riggins: Is that--

Hadley: I think they probably have sufficient mathematics skills. I mean, I worry about their reading. I mean, I don't know what, if anything, they read nowadays, because I don't get a sense that, you know, I can give examples. In lecture, sometimes, I will cite a recent novel, that is out so far, something that might have relevance to something I'm talking about-- or if I make a comment and say, "If you recall reading in this book right here, this individual talks about this phenomenon in that book." And yet, I look out at the audience of the students, and I get a sense that they've never-- they are not even familiar with the book. You know, and it might be one of the top ten books at that particular time, in either fiction or nonfiction. So this worries me. You know, that I don't know what they're reading, if anything. I don't believe that they are getting many opportunities to really get into the primary literature in a library as we did, you know, and be able to be familiar with, you know, the journals as such. They might be able to see them online. But I doubt if they're ever going in stacks or hunt back things and have a true understanding of what that's all about, or really have an appreciation of even the sciences, of the kind of-- the technical writing skills that are required to be a scientist and to think along that line, and to really I think, appreciate all the professional expectations of one who is going to go into science teaching or into science as a career.

So at some point, at least, maybe we should be offering them more professional level courses that: "Here are your responsibilities," you know. "If you're going to go in science, this is what's going to be expected of you. You need to have these strengths, these kinds of understanding, these capacities." And yet, these are Junior/Seniors. I think I see more of it in the graduate level. I think, you know, that transition does get made better here. I do worry a lot about the Juniors and the Seniors that are leaving the university with some of these skills not being any better developed than what I see.

Riggins: Right, and they would need it for various fields?

Hadley: Well, they need it for anything they do, whether or not they ever are employed in the life sciences or whatever their career is in. At some point, you just need to communicate with members of your family, your children. You're going to have to write things, in order to get things accomplished, whether it be reports or something. And I just wish that what I was seeing would be a sense that these things are better established than perhaps they are.

Riggins: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, well.

Hadley: But you know, maybe, with technology, that some of this will be passe, maybe everything will be done this way in sort of short little blips, quick blogs and things. That's how they'll read about it and get their information through internet, TV, other various advances coming along. We just don't know.

Riggins: That's true--

Hadley: Well, actually, up in lecture yesterday, just to show them what's available, I actually got onto a website where I typed in a long paragraph and had a voice as a picture up here and give that to the-- give that, orally to the class. I wasn't even there. I clicked on it and left, and the next five minutes, this person spoke to my class on the screen, information that I said for them to say. And you know, this is the next step up from taking a recorder and putting it on in front of the podium and recording a lecture. I mean, I can do the same thing. I could put a recorder down there, and say, "Here's my lecture." But now I can just do it visually. And I could have done it in any language I wanted to with this website.

Riggins: So how did it work? It recorded?

Hadley: Yes; it comes on, you know. You type in the message you want, and you just click "Say," and this person whose eyes will follow you around the room, you can move it with a mouse, and you just click, and-- and I had it read, say, "Good morning, my name is Kate. I am substituting for Professor Hadley today, who is out buying each of you a Valentine's Day present." You know, "And this is the least he can do, given the very difficult exam he gave you last week. Stick with me. You'll do better. Ooops, here he comes. I have to get out of here, now. Bye." That was my message, and it was all seen on the screen. I was not there. I came back in at that time, clicked it off, put on the lights and started the lecture. So this is what's available to you, and maybe this is what they're used to seeing.

Riggins: Oh, yeah, yeah, a lot of, we've made a lot of-- Mm-hmm.

Hadley: Yeah. So.

Riggins: So, it's changing--

Hadley: Great things, you know, and hopefully there will be some kind of balance in time that we'll take advantage of these new developments, still, you know, resurrect some of these other skills that are still essential.

Riggins: Still needed, although times have changed. But there are still some-- Like I said, I always like to ask people, "Who else do you think I should interview who you may have interacted with?" Well, of course there's Dr. Leutze, who I would like to interview. I haven't quite--

Hadley: Well yes. Dr. Leutze was the chancellor when I was there, and certainly I think he would be an excellent person to bring in and have him give you his views on the relationship between undergraduate and graduate education, because he was the one person that I had to convince, at the highest level, of the role of graduate education for the benefit of UNCW. And you know, hopefully I was able to do this. So that I think, at the time, he saw, you know, really, that with the graduate program growing as it did, that it really ultimately, made for better undergraduate programs as well. And that, of course, was his primary focus, was in undergraduate teaching. There'll be a lot of individuals that are in administration now that probably-- Paul Hosier, when he steps down, will be an excellent person. And a couple individuals that were very important to me in helping me, you know, get established in an administrative capacity here, were Dean Siple, Joanne Siple, who is now back in English like myself in phased retirement. Joanne certainly, and also Dennis Clark-- not Dennis Clark, Dennis, the Diversity-- Why I can't think of his last name right now--

Riggins: Oh, Dennis Carter.

Hadley: Carter, Carter excuse me, yes, Dennis Carter. He was very helpful to me, and both those two, you know, they were in the provost office at the time I was hired, working with Marvin Moss, who was another individual that-- if you have not spoken to Marvin, you need to talk to Marvin, because Marvin was here during this transition, and Marvin was at least supportive of the concept of growing a strong graduate program. And then he--

Riggins: And he's still around?

Hadley: Marvin is still down at the center, yeah, and I'm sure he would be delighted to come in and give his thoughts. And he could certainly do an excellent job, in terms of a very wide view of the institution, from the time that he was here, to the time that he stepped down.

Riggins: Right. Sure. Yeah, definitely. But Sherman said that he hired Sherman.

Hadley: That's right. Sherman came the year after I came on board. In fact, I was on the committee, the search committee for Sherman.

Riggins: Okay. Great.

Hadley: For a number of--

Riggins: And the library, now there's another institution that's seen a lot of change--

Hadley: [Inaudible]

Riggins: -- of technology.

Hadley: It is, and I will, and I offered some very sincere accolades. I thought the library was, for the size of this institution, was an important part of the development of both the graduate program and the research institute, here. I found some of the services provided, facilities that would help promote scholarly activities were excellent. If things were not here, you had ways to get this information to us. Never was frustrated by the library. I thought Sherman did an outstanding job of seeing it grow in a direction that complimented what the institution was trying to accomplish.

Riggins: Correct. Great. Oh, I always like to ask people for closing thoughts that I sent to you, and that would be: Can you share with us your closing thoughts, and let us know what is it about UNCW that makes it unique now? And what do you see for its future, perhaps?

Hadley: Well, if the voice will hold out just one more time, here.

Riggins: Sure.

Hadley: Well, first of all, let me preface by saying that I'm very pleased to have had an opportunity to be part of the UNCW program. I've never had any regrets leaving ASU to come here. I was treated very well by this institution, continue to be treated well, and I look back on it in a very positive sense. What will happen to it-- Well, I already spoke, in terms of the transition that I am seeing here, and so forth. I think ultimately, its fate will be determined, largely, by central administration and what they will allow it to become. It has the capacity, if the powers-that-be on the Board of Trustees and the higher administration here want it to be, to be very much on the same par of some of the research, not research one schools, but certainly at that next tier down, UNC Greensburg, UNC Charlotte, to a lesser extent, ECU, because I think we're really, in many ways, already with them. But have a nice blend of some selected graduate programs, even at the doctorial level, and maybe a stronger balance between the undergraduate and graduate programs. When I was in the administrative positions, it was certainly the sense of the higher administration or general administration, to continue this to be very much a regional, comprehensive one Masters institution. They put their hand on top of us, sort of, that we couldn't really meet somewhat I thought, our full potential. If that changes, then I think that UNCW is well-poised to do it.

It's a beautiful campus. It has wonderful facilities. It has a unique location, which is always going to be attractive for recruiting outstanding faculty and students. It has, I think, because of its location and these other factors, some niches that can be opened up that will be sought where there is a need, nationally and internationally, for this kind of educational training. It depends on resources, on funding, and on the direction that the school really decides to take and what it will be allowed to do.

Riggins: Well, I have learned a lot listening to you about all the outside forces and within-- and from within, and without, I guess, not all--

Hadley: Well, there's always going to be politics and with that, of course, budgets and other concerns that one has to deal with. But there are some outstanding scholars here. It deserves certainly to have at least an opportunity to reach its full potential.

Riggins: Well, thank you.

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