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Interview with Andrew Hayes, June 20, 2006 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Interview with Andrew Hayes, June 20, 2006
June 20, 2006
In this visual oral history interview, Dr. Andrew Hayes discusses his background, career, and life as a faculty member in the Watson School of Education. He and his wife Hathia came to teach at UNCW in 1976. He worked with Dean Roy Harkin to redesign the teacher education program and to develop the first master's degree program at UNCW, which was in School Administration. Dr. Hayes discusses the School's growth during his time here and his role in making changes. He also discusses his grants and his service to the Cameron Museum of Art. Dr. Hayes retired in July 2006.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Hayes, Andrew Interviewer: Riggins, Adina Date of Interview: 6/20/2006 Series: Voices of UNCW Length: 1 hour, 53 minutes

Riggins: Hello, my name is Adina Riggins. I'm the university archivist. I'm behind the camera today. We have in front of the camera a very special interviewee for our Archives Oral History Program called Voices of UNCW. Today is June 20th, 2006. We're in Randall Library. And please sir, state your name for the tape.

Andrew Hayes: I'm Andrew Hayes.

Riggins: Andrew Hayes, from Watson School of Education. Dr. Hayes, we'd like to begin by asking you for some background information. Please tell us where you were born and where you grew up.

Andrew Hayes: I was born in Albany, Georgia and grew up there. And.. worked as a variety of things uh.. when I was growing up after we- uh.. after I left home. But grew up on a small farm, vegetable farm, and uh- uh.. then I worked as a mechanic and as a short order cook for a number of years, before going off to college. So I had already done a tour of duty as a mechanic; and some of the people around get a kick out of that when they know- find out that I was a foreign car mechanic in the mid-'50's- and uh.. built some pretty substantial race cars, at one time or another. And that was all before I got off into college and started doing this stuff in education.

Riggins: What about growing up on a farm? Was that common to have vegetables? Were there other things that farms usually raised that--?

Andrew Hayes: Most of the- the farms in south Georgia were large row crops- uh.. peanuts, cotton, corn, uh.. some tobacco. But uh.. we had a 50 acre farm and that was not large enough for those crops. So we raised mainly- mainly vegetables and had fresh vegetables of some kind all year. So it was an all-year work job. And we had a little of the larger row crops; so we'd have a few acres of peanuts and a few acres of cotton. But we didn't have very much allotment, so that was an aside.

Riggins: It sounds like it was pretty intensive...

Andrew Hayes: (laughs)

Riggins: do that kind of farming, vegetable farming.

Andrew Hayes: Yes, it is.

Riggins: That sort of thing.

Andrew Hayes: And if- if squash needed to be picked on Sunday, you picked them on Sunday.

Riggins: Well everyone participated in the work on the farm.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, I was the- I was the youngest of 11 children. Uh.. at that point you had to grow your own farm workers. So we had 11 of us, two years apart. So we had a- a continuous uh.. labor force for quite some number of years (chuckles).

Riggins: Where did your parents sell the product?

Andrew Hayes: Mostly to the local uh.. grocery stores. That was before the- the large chains and the uhm.. corporate farms- so.

Riggins: International- yes.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, so we sold everything locally.

Riggins: It was probably still tough to afford them.

Andrew Hayes: It was, it was- but you did.

Riggins: Right, right. Wow. How many of these children ended up in farming?

Andrew Hayes: (laughs) Exactly none (laughs). We all had been there and done that.

Riggins: Yes, you knew how hard it was; although there were some good memories, I'm sure.

Andrew Hayes: Yes. Yes, I do have a younger brother who is farming now for uh- uh.. pleasure. He has about 70 acres and has a catfish pond and a herd of longhorn cows (laughs).

Riggins: Going back to his roots.

Andrew Hayes: Yes.

Riggins: In high school, you found work as a mechanic?

Andrew Hayes: Yes. My brothers were in the engine rebuilding business, so I worked with them. And then one of my brothers had a service station so I ran that for him, after school, until it closed at nights, and then on weekends.

Riggins: How desirable was it being an expert in foreign cars at that time in Georgia?

Andrew Hayes: Well it was good. I mean, if- if you start with the assumption that you need to do something to make a living, then you do something that nobody else is doing. And there were very few people who knew how to or could work on foreign cars, uh.. or could get parts or even had tools to work on them because they were metric and the metric tools were not the thing. So I specialized in that.

Riggins: What kind of cars did you work on? Was it Toyota then or--.

Andrew Hayes: No, no, no. No, Japanese cars were not coming into the country.

Riggins: Yes, _________- still kind of cheap, right- yes.

Andrew Hayes: Right, right. They were the European cars. Uhm.. the first engine I rebuilt was a Jaguar, LXK 120, uh.. and then a Volkswagen and--. But the French cars were coming in, Peugeots, Renaults. Uh.. British cars were in, the British Motors Corporation cars, the Austins and the uh.. the Austin Healeys and the Jaguars and the Rovers and a few of those- and then the Volkswagens were coming in. Porsche came in about then. So it was a good time 'cuz there weren't many people to work on them. And I didn't know they were supposed to be different, so it didn't matter.

Riggins: How often did you return to those skills in college, did you ever--?

Andrew Hayes: Well through college, through undergraduate school I continued to work as a mechanic in a local garage and uh.. then I would go home during the holidays, Christmas holidays and over the summer and work in the engine room building shops, and work that way. And after that, uhm- uh.. only when I needed it for my own work or when the neighbor needed it or--. Some years back here we had uhm.. a- a neighbor who had uh.. three boys who were in the car business, in the sense that they torn them up regularly, and uh.. so I'd help them with things that they messed up. But uh.. I try not to do that any more than I have to, unless it's a mowing lawnmower or something like that now.

Riggins: Then you kind of do it then.

Andrew Hayes: Yes.

Riggins: Where did you go to college?

Andrew Hayes: I went to Louisiana Tech for undergraduate and then for Master's degrees. And uhm... But after the Bachelor's programs, uh.. Hathia and I got married and we moved to- back to Albany, Georgia and worked in the schools there, she in elementary school and I in the high school. And uhm- uh.. we went back to Louisiana Tech in the summers uh.. to get the Master's, and also started in the Extension Program at Auburn, uh.. during that time. And then we just continued at Auburn after getting the Master's. And then uh.. a man from the University of Georgia came to teach an extension course in Athens and- I mean in Albany- and recruited me to the doctoral program there. And uhm.. we left the public schools after five years in them and moved to the University of Georgia, into the doctoral program there, and we left Auburn. And uh.. we both worked there in the doctoral programs for awhile.

Riggins: I believe Hathia mentioned that. It was a pretty good deal they offered you to go to Albany- well paying I think; or not to go to Albany, to go to Athens.

Andrew Hayes: Georgia, yes. Uh.. in fact, we- uh.. I was an assistant principal in the high school with full certification and Hathia was teaching with a Master's degree, and on our research assistantships at Georgia we made more money than we made in the schools in Albany. And uh.. one of my major professors over the years said he was the only person that I ever knew who- that he ever knew who came to a doctoral program to get rich. So we did quite well, during that program. And we had been there--. Uh.. well, my background was a bit strange, uhm.. for educational administration which I'd gotten into. I'd started in math education and math teaching, but six weeks into the first year of teaching-- uh.. we were in one wing of the junior high school building with a staff who were going to be moving into a new high school building the following year- the new high school was under construction. And it had the principal assigned, the one who would be the new high school principal, was assigned to that one wing of the junior high school building. And as we said back then in Albany, like six weeks into my first year, they put him up on the 7th floor, which was the psychiatric ward in the hospital. And- and as the only male in the teaching group, I became it. So I got into administration six weeks into my first year of teaching, and then had to work on certification in that area, and got into--.

Riggins: Did they kind of just say, we need this?

Andrew Hayes: Well (sighs)--.

Riggins: Your permanent job, we'll-see-how you-do kind of thing?

Andrew Hayes: No. No uhm.. growing up uh.. I never assumed I was going to college. Uhm.. there simply was no money to go to college and no one in schools had ever talked with me about going to college, except the high school principal. And he and his wife argued about whether I was going into teaching or in- or in education, or into aviation; because she was uhm.. a pilot and taught me how to fly, when I was uh- uh.. just uh.. oh about the 10th grade. And we set up a- a civil air patrol squadron and flew missions and so on. And they had a big place down at Panama City, Florida and we- uh.. they would take me and another uh.. guy from this course, uhm.. from the Aviation course, to Florida with them on the weekends. And uhm.. the uh.. principal asked me if I was going to college, and I told him no, I had no money to go to college. And he said, "Would you go if you had a scholarship?" And uh.. I said, "Well I never thought about it." So he came up with a scholarship that was $200.00 a year, for someone going into education, and it would uhm.. be forgiven if you taught. So he had told me, "Come back and I'll give you a job." So that's how I got back. And he was the Director of High Schools when we came back and did in fact give me the job as- of teaching mathematics in high school, and then uh.. put me in the administrative position when the other one- the other man-- and uhm.. continued to support and encourage me. In fact, uhm.. a difficulty that we had leaving was, you know, how do you leave someone like that who has given you so many opportunities? And by then I had moved up and was going to be uhm.. principal of the large high school the following year and- when I was recruited to Athens. And so when I went to talk with him he said, "By all means go. You'll never be a better administrator than I am, but you'll understand it so much better." So we remained very close friends with- with him and with his wife, uhm.. on through both of their deaths.

And uh- uh.. so, you know, I got into administration very early. And in the doctoral program at Auburn I was in Educational Administration with uh- uh.. some of the real leaders in educational leadership in the- the south. And then at uhm- uh.. Athens, I worked with a man who had uhm.. been in computer applications in educational administration and in research and statistics; and this was in uh.. the early sixties and on through the sixties. So uhm.. there were not many people in that field, uh.. then. And I had worked uh.. at Louisiana Tech in the Math Department, which was a service department for the Engineering School. And one of the areas that I worked with very closely was electrical engineering, and had actually taken computer programming classes in the- or well in 1960, '61, along in there. So when uh.. I started working with this man from the University of Georgia with those extension classes, it was computer applications in education. And we started working with computer applications in uh.. educational leadership- things like uh.. applications of operations research uh.. procedures to educational uh.. applications. So we had quite unique backgrounds. And uh.. then I went to Athens to work with him, I took over teaching his classes. So, the first year I was there he assigned me to the computer center to work as an applications programmer, and then I taught his classes. And I had been there two years when he came in and said, "Do you want my job?" And uhm.. he moved into a university level administrative position, and I took his faculty position at the University of Georgia, before finishing the doctorate, and uhm.. took over an organization that he was running, which was the research lab, supporting the College of Education. And we were doing institutional research for the university system, developing the uh.. prediction formulas and the statistics for the admissions offices in the university system, to use. So it was kind of a unique background and program, and uhm.. there really was no one else. There were about half a dozen of us in the country in educational administration with computer backgrounds and statistics and research backgrounds. So I stayed there and ran the research lab for--. Uh.. after he left the position, I stayed in that faculty position for three more years before uh.. leaving university and coming to Chapel Hill, on the faculty there then.

Riggins: I had no idea you had that background in computing. But I suppose that makes sense with the mathematics.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: Did you find that you enjoyed the programming, you felt at home with it, since your background--?

Andrew Hayes: Well, programming was fun. Some people like to play cards, I like to write a computer program. It's- it's a matter of how do you solve a problem for doing something? Uhm.. the coding gets fairly routine, but after you- but the designing of it can be really fun. Uhm.. you know, occasionally you pull off one that nobody can figure out what it does and how it does it but they just know- see the results and know it- it does- and that's fun. But uhm.. after leaving the University of Georgia in uhm.. '72, most of what I did with computer applications was just whatever I wanted to do for my own work. So I've just done my own statistical work and programming and whatever I wanted to do with it, since then.

Riggins: Great. I'm sure overseeing the institutional research at University of Georgia, that's real different from serving as a principal and--.

Andrew Hayes: (laughs) It- it was.

Riggins: In Albany.

Andrew Hayes: Uh.. I also worked at the University of Georgia with a man named Andrew Halpin who was uh- uh.. one of the leading scholars in the field of education, certainly in his case administration. He was a clinical psychologist who had uhm.. gotten into education or educational administration through a back door, through military leadership studies during the Korean War. And uhm.. he was one of the most ornery, obnoxious characters that the field has ever had, but the most brilliant. Uh.. and he never worked with anyone else, uhm- uh.. wrote with anyone else, and he and I wrote together and worked together and--. And uh.. one of the things he did was continued working very actively in the field until- till his retirement. And he sent me to uhm- uh.. Ohio State to work with some University of Chicago faculty who were doing national studies uh.. when I was a- a doctoral student. But my job was to help them design the study and do the statistical analysis for 'em. So I started working at a national level very quickly with them. And we also had a federal grant that was uhm.. to establish some policy foundations for the US Office of Education for uh.. dealing with institutes for delinquents. And so I traveled the whole country for about a year with that, with them, and we did some pretty substantial national work and got to know people all over. So it really was a shift from a local school and a local level to the national level fairly quickly, once I got there.

Riggins: ____________.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: And policy issues.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: Where did you go following that?

Andrew Hayes: Well uhm.. from uhm... I got caught in the middle of a political situation in Georgia and had to leave there, because the man whose position I took was engaged in some major policy redirection for the university. The university had hired their own graduates in so many positions that uhm.. everybody was getting upset about it, including the legislature, and it was his job to clean house. And it was getting pretty nasty because they were not giving tenure to anyone who was a University of Georgia graduate. And it had never come up about me and him- because we were very close, uh.. and he had recruited me there and I took his position, and we remained very close personal and professional friends. So one day I just called the President and said, "Look, if I stay, will our relationship eventually hit the fan?" And he said, "I'm afraid it will." So, that fall I moved to UNC Chapel Hill to work with the Frank Porter Graham Child Development Research Center and with a national technical assistance project, working with states and large city schools and with federally funded programs on implementation of early childhood programs for the handicapped, and uh.. worked with the Federal government on developing the policies for uh.. implementation of Public Law 94-142, which was that first major legislation for handicapped uh.. people, and worked with uh.. a number of national uhm.. groups. But I worked with 30 states on statewide planning for early education of the handicapped. So I traveled all over the country and worked in those- usually in the uh.. capital cities of those states. And then we got 150 federally funded programs that were located all over the country. So I worked with them on planning and evaluation, designing the--.

Riggins: How did that program come to Chapel Hill? Because I'm from there and I've never heard of the Frank Porter Graham Center for--. Perhaps it may have started--. Like how long had it been around before you started?

Andrew Hayes: Awhile; but this particular program started the year before. Jim Gallagher, who was the director of Frank Porter Graham Center and continued in that position for many years, came to that position from the uh.. position as uhm.. head of the uh- uh.. Office of Special Education in Washington. So uhm.. he- he was personally connected with the money sources there. And the person who took over after him was a former student of his or uh.. Jim was his mentor.

(Crew talk)

Riggins: Mr. Gallagher had started up this program.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, he- he had the grants from the Federal government for that work with states, and they really continued that for many, many years, and uh.. they still have National Technical Assistance initiatives going on there, as a part of that. But in addition to my work in the uhm- uh.. Frank Porter Graham Center, I taught classes in the School of Education, particularly the uh.. upper level courses in the research sequence. And uhm- uh.. I had gotten pretty heavily into organization theory because Halpin was identified with that and one of the people who actually uh.. brought the whole notion of the social sciences into education or into educational administration, back in the '50's. And uhm.. so when I got there, started working in the School of Education, Roy Harken, who was on the faculty and was Associate Dean, and I became very close friends, and he I team taught classes in the School of Education, the Organization Theory classes that he taught mainly. And uhm- uh.. after four years of that national travel, uh.. I was just worn out. And then Hathia was traveling the whole state with the Department of Public Instruction. And Roy took the job to come to UNC Wilmington to- to establish uh.. the Watson School of Education. They'd had a small school then with six or seven total faculty, uhm.. and uhm.. but his charge was to develop it as a major school of education. And when he came uhm.. the positions were opened up. He came in January of '76, and uh.. they offered Hathia and me jobs in that following Fall. So we came in August of '76, mainly because Roy came here. And- and we continued to be very close friends and colleagues, over the years.

Riggins: Right, he had brought you in.

Andrew Hayes: Right, yeah.

Riggins: Well it's interesting, going back to the position you had in the Frank Porter Graham Center, you hadn't necessarily had experience in special ed or anything like that.

Andrew Hayes: No.

Riggins: But it was basically the broad experience of being able to manage organizations, manage projects that--.

Andrew Hayes: And planning; planning and decision making. We had--. Well the whole research- I had gotten into evaluation and project design and project management, and uh- uhm.. with the research and data analysis and planning, and that kind of stuff was just a logical takeoff from what I was actually doing. What uh.. Jim Kinney, who was the man who recruited to me to the University of Georgia, and I did was uh.. a lot of translation of the decision sciences into educational applications, particularly education administration applications. So, so many of those were the same as we were using in large scale planning, you know statewide planning, or in uh.. even local project planning uh.. and evaluation. So it was kind of a generalization of those. And I guess that's one of the things that I'd gotten into over the years as an expert generalist- you know? So there are a lot- a lot of areas that I've worked in, and- and--.

Riggins: What was the topic of your dissertation?

Andrew Hayes: Oh--.

Riggins: Evaluation or--?

Andrew Hayes: Halpin had developed uhm.. the concept of organization climate, and translated it into oh school applications, and had developed some instruments for assessing organizational climate. And by the time I came along and was doing my dissertation, that instrument was ten years old, and I just did a revision or an update, reanalysis; because the time he did it, even the computer applications and the statistical analysis tools that we had by the early '70's- late '60's and early '70's- simply were not available to them. So it was simply going back to that concept of school climate, organizational climate, and doing a reappraisal of that and--.

Riggins: Figuring out how to measure it and using bar tools.

Andrew Hayes: And- but basically--. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did that. And I continued to work in that area, because that was a popular research area. So uh.. I had begun in the late '60's to work with doctoral students and universities all over the country, because I had affiliations with them through the national organizational education and leadership- educational administration. Uh.. well- well I had affiliations with faculty members all over the- all over the universities of the- the country. And uhm.. they would refer their students to me and I would work with them on the design of their studies and- and interpretation of the data, and- and continued that really until just a few years ago. Uhm.. so I guess--.

Riggins: So you were working on research methods and methodology and--.

Andrew Hayes: And- and mainly interpretations- research design and interpretation of the research findings related to just the social characteristics of schools and school climate.

Riggins: Did you punch holes in their theories or--? No, that's not really--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah I mean--. What I tried to do was make sure that whatever they came in with, you made a legitimate research project. And uhm.. what I did when I was at the University of Georgia in that Research Lab, in addition to the uhm.. institutional research with the university system was serve as a- a resource- uh.. the lab served as a resource unit for the College of Education. And the College of Education at that time had 350 faculty members in it. So we had huge numbers of doctoral students. And we had a- a lab facility, and I had ten research assistants and I had a computer programming staff and data processing staff, and we would work uh.. with any of them in- on their dissertation or designs, and the faculty members on their own research designs, and then worked with them through the- the complete- uh.. the completion of their projects. So probably during that time I worked with 1000 projects, their research projects. So I just continued that over the years. And my job was always- or I saw it as one of taking whatever idea they came up with and making it, uhm.. if it were- was- was not when it came in, theoretically sound, with a doable research design associated with it. And uh.. many of the students would come to me with.. some very vague idea that probably, even if you uh.. made it more explicit, would not be doable with the resources that a doctoral student had. So it was always a- a matter of converting it to something that was doable so that they could get it signed (laughs) uhm.. and uh.. complete their degree.

Riggins: How was it, working with them and telling them they needed to reshape their idea? Were they generally amenable to your suggestions or did it vary?

Andrew Hayes: Well, uh.. they probably wouldn't have been referred to me if they didn't- uh.. if somebody didn't think they were good enough to put up with the questions they would be asked. And uhm.. what I used is a questioning strategy uh.. to try to come up with uh- uh.. what they- what they were actually thinking and why they were thinking it and why they thought the relationship should be the way they- they did. And fairly quickly the holes started revealing themselves, and uhm.. once they would see those, then uh.. I- I thought it was my job to help them figure out ways to plug them. So that's what I usually did.

Riggins: And you continued to do that here? Or you said all over the country you continued to--?

Andrew Hayes: I did up until just a few years ago.

Riggins: How would you do that, how would you get involved? People would be referred to you?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: And you'd work with them on the phone?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, so students of students of students of students of students- yeah.

Riggins: Or email?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. Well telephone, meet at conferences. Uhm.. some came here. I continued to travel all over the country and so sometimes we'd meet up wherever they were, and we just continued to do it. And I probably worked with 20 and 30 a year. Uh...

Riggins: They must be very grateful in the end. You helped them get through and--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Riggins: Helped them--.

Andrew Hayes: Of course the result is that you have to be careful wherever you go because somebody may know you (laughs).

Riggins: Right, and if they don't agree- yes, how does it feel- to a high quality.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: Well when you came here, what was the discussion that- you said it was going to be a major university. Were they envisioning twice as many faculty members in a certain amount of time or--?

Andrew Hayes: Well uh.. I'm not sure that it was that clear. Uhm.. this campus was really a high school, in many ways, when we came. Uhm.. the- the original leaders had come out of public school administration and had high school type or central office level experiences. And the whole policy frameworks were really uh.. public schools focused, and that's- you know, it started as a part of the public school system here even, and branched out into a university. But it still reflected a high school and--.

Riggins: Interesting.

Andrew Hayes: Uhm.. my background for a number of years had not exactly been at that local level, and was not too interested in doing things just because somebody thought that's the way--.

Riggins: That's the way they'd always done it.

Andrew Hayes: They should do it- yeah. But Roy and I were on probably 30 or 35 doctoral committees when we left Chapel Hill. So we continued to travel to Chapel Hill, uh.. sometimes two, three times a week, for doctoral committee meetings. And uhm.. we probably did that for three or four years, after we came here.

Riggins: These were people's dissertation committees?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, they were still working on completion of their dissertations at Chapel Hill. And uhm.. that gave us six hours a day of driving time, from--. Because that was US 421, it was not uh.. I-40. So we uh..- we just did a lot of planning and we did a lot of conceptualization of what a School of Education might be. That's different from what they tended- tended to be. And uhm.. over the next few years the university allocated a number of positions to- to our Department of Education, and then ultimately to the School of Education. So we started filling positions every year and uhm.. so every year we had 3, 4 or 5 positions to fill, and grew those- grew the faculty size quite large fairly quickly. And uhm.. one of the amazing things about that run was that we got everyone we wanted; I mean, it didn't matter where they came from or what- where they had offers. And we had people who had offers at Harvard or Stanford or Cornell or wherever it happened to be, and we got them, because of uhm.. really a- a core group of people with a broad range in background, uhm.. and uhm.. a commitment to develop uhm.. innovative programs. And good people came for that, they flocked to it. And we had a quite a run. Because one of the things we did was uhm.. usually, well almost without exception we would interview three people for each position and we'd bring them in and we always had them here for at least two full days. And one night we would have dinner at Roy's and Sandy's house, and another one we'd have dinner at our house and- and- you know, Hathia's and my house, and we'd have the whole faculty there. So we really got to know the people while we're here. And they'll say, how do you do it? You just did it, and that was- we wanted somebody who was going to be a member of that group that we liked and they liked us. And- and we wanted every person who left here to want the position when they left. And- and I think we were successful in that, so that the one we offered the position to, took it, without exception. So we had a real good run, because we uh.. just had conceptualized a design of a teacher education program and how everything fit into it, and the- those new people could develop their particular components, because we were adding parts. And then we added the Master's programs and another Master's program and another Master's program and another undergraduate program. And so we always were in a development mode, for years- you know? And we just continued doing that and uh- uh.. developed that kind of organization.

Riggins: Well the people you wished to attract had an interest in developing something. It was their specialty but within a framework, that was comfortable for them.

Andrew Hayes: Right, right. Yeah, and some of our strongest supporters over the years have been people who did not get positions here. Uhm.. there have been a number of people who did not get positions here who went on to major positions, who have endowed professorships at major universities throughout the country. And some of those people would probably come here today if they thought they could get a position here. Uhm.. and some of 'em--. Uh.. one man who came in once uh.. as a young- he was a person right out of a doctoral program and he had worked with a guy who was kind of a arrogant big shot in a big university, and he had told this man, you know, you'll go over to this little regional campus and you'll be able to snow them with what you know and your experiences- and he had already worked with this major professor on a book in- in their field. And- and at that point we probably had the strongest group of people in organization theory and educational administration in the country; and uh.. people with larger uh.. backgrounds and- and more extensive backgrounds and better rank.

Riggins: You had Roy Halpin and--.

Andrew Hayes: Norm Ellis, and me, and early on we had uh.. Bob Tyndall who'd come in early on; but particularly Norm and- and uh.. Roy and me. And this guy came in and by the end of the first day he was just blown out of the water and he came and...

Riggins: He hadn't prepared himself for that.

Andrew Hayes: He had not prepared himself for that.

Riggins: He thought he'd be the--.

Andrew Hayes: Right.

Riggins: The one that people would be asking questions- well you were asking questions.

Andrew Hayes: Right.

Riggins: But he didn't expect to be learning from you guys, maybe.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. And about ten o'clock the second morning I just said, "Look, you like stereos, I like stereos. This thing is not working. Let's go to the stereo shop." So we went to the stereo shop and the rest of that day we just went around town, and we went over to the house and we listened to stereo and we--. And that guy has had now for a number of years an endowed professorship at Ohio State, and he would come here- and I'd meet him all over the country, and anybody, any time he's around us, he tells his people, "That's the place that I wanted to go." So that's the way we were, back then.

Riggins: But it was clear--. Did he--? He wanted to go then.

Andrew Hayes: Oh, he wanted to come, very badly, but he knew he had just blown it.

Riggins: Why?

Andrew Hayes: He was bright enough to know that he had blown it.

Riggins: By his attitude you mean or by--?

Andrew Hayes: Oh he- he- he was bright enough to know that he had blown it- yes. And it just was not working, and he- he was getting frustrated and people were getting discouraged that they had to spend the rest of the day with him. So we just declared an end to it (laughs) and went- and went on.

Riggins: Right. Well, you know, better be honest than to just be nice.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah.

Riggins: And that way you can stay colleagues.

Andrew Hayes: We established quite a reputation here, uh.. and it was not very positive, uhm.. among the students in the region and in school systems in the- schools and school systems in the region. We were out of touch with reality and in our ivory towers and didn't know where the world was at. And we kept telling 'em, well there's a lot about uh- uh.. the uh..- the uh.. real world of schools that we completely disagree with because that's not the way it might be, and we're gonna teach it the way it might be. And we continued that, really continued it for many years. But one year when we had a Master's program in the School of Administration, we had a group of students who were full-time, and they were just one of those groups that comes along in a lifetime, and they were so bright that they completely transformed the norms of the place. And then we started recruiting more and more and more of the really strong, strong candidates. And then it got known around that people who came here learned things that others didn't know. And these candidates were so excited because they knew there were things that they knew that people up and down the halls of their schools did not know. So we hung in there; and it was fairly difficult because at that point you could go lots of other places in the state and get a whole lot cheaper degree. But we sustained that for quite some number of years, uhm.. as long as that core group of faculty were here.

Riggins: What was the first Master's program the school offered?

Andrew Hayes: Educational administration- that was the first Master's program on campus.

Riggins: Oh, right.

Andrew Hayes: So we were really instrumental in developing the Graduate School as well because you didn't have any policies; so you just decided the way it might be, and you developed it. And so much of what we did was that way. Uh.. there were a lot of things that uh.. we wouldn't have any policies on. So I would call the provost or whoever and say, "Well how should we do this?" "I don't know." And I'd say, "Well I think we should do it this way", and that's the way we did it. So those became the policies. And through that process we broke this notion of- of a school and changed the norms and it became more and more and more like a university, as we added more and more programs to it and- and got things to back up what- what it might be.

Riggins: As you add more and more programs.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. And of course you had other units on campus developing too, particularly the School of Business and- and some of the programs through there. But- but it started expanding out from- from there.

Riggins: When you came, were you and Dean Harkin the only ones really doing educational leadership for administration?

Andrew Hayes: Well we didn't have any courses in that then. But we were the early uhm..- oh, we were the early people to start it.

Riggins: Yes, you were the first ones.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, we were it, to- to start it- yeah.

Riggins: Really? That was it.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. And we hired the man who had been uh.. my research assistant when we were traveling the country with the Frank Porter Graham Center at Chapel Hill, and he had moved on to Ohio- Ohio State, and then we hired him from Ohio State, at that time- that time. So the three of us were kind of the core, and then we added others over time, in Ed Administration.

Riggins: Did you start off as Chair of Specialty Studies?

Andrew Hayes: No. No, uhm.. well let's see- no, the other guy started it. It was some years before we split into a School of Education with two departments, and Hathia chaired the department, and then we all agreed that it was not--.

Riggins: She chaired Curriculum Studies.

Andrew Hayes: She chaired Curriculum Studies, and we all agreed that it would not be good for husband and wife to be the two department chairs. So Norman Ellis was the man who came in and he chaired uh.. Specialty Studies, until uhm..- well for quite some number of years. And I was Department Chair for a short term, after him and another--. I'm not sure when, in what order. But at- at any rate, after he left.

Riggins: Now people can get a Bachelor's degree in--.

Andrew Hayes: And a Master's.

Riggins: In that, in Specialty Studies, or like a--?

Andrew Hayes: No. We- uh.. we offer the foundations part of the teacher education programs, and the other degree programs.

Riggins: Oh I see, that's right.

Andrew Hayes: So at the undergraduate level there's not a- a- a degree in Educational Administration. So that's just a Master's degree, or- or above- yeah.

Riggins: That Admissions part would be what everyone takes before they get accepted into the school or--?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah, right. Well or some of 'em would be afterwards, as well; but some of 'em would be before they were accepted into the School of Education, and- and some would be afterwards. So.

Riggins: Well, what was it like when you got here, with the energy of the--? There were some faculty who maybe hadn't been here all that long- Dr. Holiday and Grace Burton came in maybe the early--.

Andrew Hayes: She was one of the early people that we recruited in and--. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Riggins: Oh, Grace Burton came after you.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, right.

Riggins: Okay, and Paz had been here.

Andrew Hayes: Paz had been here, yes.

Riggins: And Calvin Doss.

Andrew Hayes: He was already here- yeah.

Riggins: Right, right. So you were the new guard and they were the old guard. But how did that work?

Andrew Hayes: Well, uh.. I think often, like it usually does- I mean, like it does; uh.. we were the new guard. And uhm- uh.. most of them came out of a- a public school experience and- and still viewed the world from that experience. And- and their identity and strength was in--. Uh.. and over the years, for example, some could have gone into any public school classroom with their specialization and been a better teacher than the teacher. Uhm.. we were looking at it from a different perspective and we- we assumed that there were generalizable analytic models that people could be taught. For example, you could teach people to think as a professional, not just to do things skillfully. And that was a real shift because most of the knowledge bases that we were teaching, the other faculty did not know. And uh.. we tried to develop a familiarity with those over the years but we were not- we were only marginally successful with that. So uhm.., you know, we were the new guard and- and often were viewed that way. And Roy was viewed as, or I was viewed as Roy's friend, and you know so it was that way. And Hathia was nice and they kind of accepted her and she- with classroom teaching as well, and could have done the same thing. But uhm- uh.. it was a real shift. But one of the things that was different about the School of Education at UNC Wilmington and any other school of education I've been affiliated with was that everybody we hired in, from when Roy came, for 6 or 8 years, had strong backgrounds in the arts and sciences. I mean, I had a Master's in math- or well a course or two away from a Master's in math- and could have taught any of the math courses we had here at the time. And I could have taught any of the operations research or, you know, the decision sciences courses we had. So it got to be very- and- and could have taught any of the stat courses we had and so on. So I got to be very close friends with people in the arts and sciences in our areas, as did Roy- and then others who came in. And so we had a- a- a university wide identity and affiliation. And many of those people have stayed friends over the years. And you know, so uh.. if you talk about uh.. somebody like Sylvia Polgar, I mean Sylvia was a friend of ours from the time she came here, of course. So uhm.. we just uhm.. had a- a school wide, university wide affiliation and respect that Schools of Education typically do not.

Riggins: And bigger places think they're more isolated and--.

Andrew Hayes: Right. And they wonder what is it that you people really know?

Riggins: Or what are you teaching?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah.

Riggins: _______________?

Andrew Hayes: Right. And we never had that kind of uh- uh.. difficulty here on campus. And over the years it served us and the School of Education and the university very well because we'd been respected as a place with a wider uh.. kind of identity and- and broader respect than uhm- uh.. so many schools of education.

Riggins: From what I understand Dean Harkin really encouraged that, pushed that.

Andrew Hayes: Oh yes, oh yes, very much so.

Riggins: Knowledge of your subject matter and rigorous _________.

Andrew Hayes: Right, right. And his own teaching for the last few years that he was here was in the humanities, and- and uhm.. in the humanities and also in humanities courses in the School of Education. So we always tried to have an identity broader than- than the education component. So that was a real shift. Uhm.. but it served the School of Education, Department of Education, School of Education very well.

Riggins: What about the teaching experience, how much teaching in public schools had your new recruits done, the people that you brought in?

Andrew Hayes: Most had done some. I mean, my background was uh.. five years, uhm.. and well I taught as long as I was in uh.. the high schools. Uh.. even though I was in administration I still taught mathematics. And most of it was relatively short; but we weren't trying to be expert teachers, we were trying to- we were trying to be expert teachers of teachers. So, for example, now uhm.. Hathia and I, with some colleagues in England, have developed some of the most powerful clinical, analytic models for teaching that there are. So while I may not be- and some people don't think I'm a very good teacher, I can analyze teaching with a fine grain detail that very few people can, and could help someone make improvements that very few people could help them make. So that's what we were trying to do was teach people to be uh.. thinkers for a career in the field of education. Uh.. we knew that they had to be trained in teaching, but we wanted them, to the extent that we could, to have a knowledge foundation and have some thinking skills to think about what they were doing and how they were doing it, why they were doing it and so on- uhm.. not- not just being skillful as a teacher.

Riggins: Right. That was what was hard to get people to think about was if it crops up, you'll solve it as professionals.

Andrew Hayes: Right.

Riggins: The students coming up and--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. See, that was the major contribution, I think, that Roy and I made, uh.. and I'm not sure we ever fully pulled it off, but we have both- we both wrote and- and made presentations around it, and I think it's something that uhm.. Hathia and I want to continue our writing on, uh.. after retirement, is the whole notion of teaching as a profession, and- and school leadership as a profession, uh.. with the assumption that uhm..- and this goes back to Roy's studies in conceptualizations from uh.. organization theory- that a profession has- or the professionals have some class of decisions over which they have discretion and they have the knowledge basis to make those decisions, and then they have decision making skills, and then they have skills to implement those uh.. practices. So we've designed our whole teacher education program around that notion of what are the decisions, what kind of knowledge basis do you need around those, what kind of alternatives do you need to know about and- and information to make--? And then what kind of decision making skills do you need to be able to make those choices on the fly? And then you need to be skillful enough to be able to go into a classroom and- and pull it off. And so--.

Riggins: That sounds great. That sounds like it would be useful for any field that you go into.

Andrew Hayes: Well, it is. I mean, that's- I mean if the assumption is that that's a profession, then--. So going back to, you know, being an expert generalist, it- it really wouldn't bother me to go into any other profession and uh..- and work, in- in the decision making component, because decision making is decision making. And- and we say that we can't teach people decision making skills, but there are people all over the country who see me and say, "You taught me how to think."

Riggins: Who were some of your best students? I'm not publishing their names, but just personality types. Do you remember some students who came in and you thought, oh, this person is never going to manage a classroom, and then he or she did and--?

Andrew Hayes: No, I guess one of the things that I've always prided myself in is the capacity to see beyond what lots of people see. There's some people who- leaders in this state now- who were essentially kicked out of this university. And I just said, "No, you're not." And they've gone on and they have doctorates and--. So uh.. it's- there's a spark there and a capacity to deal with an- an idea beyond what most people are. And when you can press them to think about something and you can see that they're in fact thinking about it. And then- then you go with them. And uh.. so I've worked with any types, all over. Some of 'em took a long time to come to; uh.. some were very quick. But uhm.. I was up in the Department of Education building in Raleigh uh.. last year, was standing in the lobby, and this lady came running up and uhm- uh.. she's uh.. head of one of the divisions for the legislature now, one of the staff divisions for the legislature, and brought- called her friend over and said, "This is the most uh.. difficult professor I have ever had, and the best, and he taught me how to think." So you- you can do that.

Riggins: And that's a real skill.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, you can do that but--. But it's also very difficult because you have what?- 12, 13 class meetings, you know, when you have a week- uh.. when you have one meeting a week, and you're going to change the way people's minds have worked, and they're already 28 (laughs). You know? It's really difficult and--.

Riggins: And this is in the graduate program?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. Well our graduate programs have always been one night a week, for the most part. Or in the summer you have 'em for a few weeks, and- and that's it. But you can do that, but not keep them comfortable. You- you- you have to make them uncomfortable. And some are not willing to do that, and some don't have the- just the mental horsepower to do that. But if- if they're willing to engage you, most can- but it's not comfortable.

Riggins: Where does the criticism that they were in their ivory tower, was that--?

Andrew Hayes: Well that was early, after we started our Master's program, for the first few years of it, and until we had that group of full-time students who came in. And uhm.. but I took all of those students to graduate- to uh.. other universities with doctoral programs, and most of them have gone on and gotten their doctorate. And so it- it was just one of those groups that comes through and you're able- they were good enough, and here full-time and willing to engage enough that we changed the norms of the school.

Riggins: That was the first full-time group or--?

Andrew Hayes: No, it--. We had other full-time students but that was a larger group than we normally had and it was an unusually capable group, an unusually uh.. high motivated group. It was just one of those that comes along occasionally.

Riggins: Well I recently interviewed Dr. Tyndall about his School of Education ties, but we didn't talk about ITSD because I thought that's for a later interview. And he came in the late '80's- right?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: '89 or so.

Andrew Hayes: Right. Decades- decades go by too quickly, yeah.

Riggins: Yes, you've been here awhile.

Andrew Hayes: But Bob and I had worked together at Chapel Hill, when he was in the Durham County Schools. Uh.. I had uh.. done some evaluation work for them, and uh.. he was just a young principal, then, and had gotten into the Central Office some- when I was there, uh.. working with them. I worked on some evaluation projects with them.

Riggins: And he came on and he was a lecturer.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: He taught in the graduate program, didn't he?

Andrew Hayes: Right. Uh-hum, yeah, and worked as an assistant or associate to Bob- I mean to uhm.. to Roy, and uh.. yeah.

Riggins: Did you think that- oh he'll only be here for a short while? That's what he said. He said when he came he--. Since he likes to move around so much, he never expected to be here and now he- 18 years later, still here.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. Yeah, uhm.. for a variety of reasons- uh.. one is that the pay scales in universities are completely different from public school leadership positions, and uh.. our faculty make about what a beginning assistant principal would make. And uhm...

Riggins: And he had been a superintendent.

Andrew Hayes: He'd been a superintendent- yeah. Uh.. so yeah, you don't expect anybody with uh..- as a young man, as he was, a young man- he's still a young man, comparatively- uh.. to deal with the salary. And of course he went on into positions at- at the university level and at the Dean level.

Riggins: He got tenured promotion and all that.

Andrew Hayes: The university level- yeah. Yeah.

Riggins: Well that was great talking to him and he filled me in about lots of things including building the new building, which has been around for- I can't believe it. Working with Eleanor Wright. Were you on that committee as well?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, I was interim dean during that time.

Riggins: Okay, yes.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, during the planning of it. And see I took over when Bob left, as Interim Dean, until Cathy came as Dean.

Riggins: Her involvement in the development and planning of the current Watson School of Education.

Andrew Hayes: Well the core plan had been done before I came back. And I was out for a year or so, uh.. doing work full-time with the National Center for Family Literacy, and uhm.. was here periphably- uh.. peripherally. Uh.. but uhm.. Bob continued to chair- with uh.. Paul Hosier- continued to chair the- the planning team. Uhm.. so I was just among the group. And uhm.. we'd raise cain any time--. I guess my position has always been that uhm- uh.. institutional facilities ________ to look like institutional facilities; and I think collectively we communicated that message fairly clearly, and uh.. the university got excited about that possibility. So that's one of the things we owe Bob, because uh.. certainly the buildings on campus after that one will not be the same that they would've been otherwise.

(tape change)

Riggins: Here's the tape starting again for Tape 2 for--. This is Adina Riggins interviewing Dr. Andrew Hayes. I asked during the break about collaborating with some outside faculty, because you mentioned John Anderson School of Business, that you had some similar research interests.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. One of the things that I don't think the university has a comparable system for now, and hasn't for quite some time- uhm.. one is size- but at one point the- the dining hall was in uh.. what's now Westside Hall. And upstairs, in the back, there was a faculty dining room, and there was a large group of faculty who ate lunch there, and we would sit there and- and just have some of the grandest conversations and arguments. And we got to the point of really identifying people whom we really liked and worked with across campus that way. For example, uh- uh.. one that the School of Education has had a long uh.. history with is Dick Ward. And Dick came here as a relatively young faculty member and uh- uh.. had a background in computer applications, and his was mainly in science. But uh.. when micro computers started coming onto campus, Dick was one of the real resources for people on campus. And a lot of the conversation occurred in that Faculty Dining Room.

Riggins: That's great. Is he math or--?

Andrew Hayes: Chemistry.

Riggins: He's Chemistry- okay.

Andrew Hayes: But uhm...

Riggins: The same with Paul Hosier.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: Did he have a relationship with Paul?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, so uh.. I forget when we first met Paul but I'm sure it must go back to that dining hall. But- but uh.. Dick and I worked very closely, once we started having micro computers on campus because uhm.. he and I worked together a lot on- on projects. And- and uh.. he had a program that was called Summer Ventures, and they wanted some computers for the Summer Ventures students and needed a place to put them. So he had enough money for some computers, and I made a case for some end-of-year money to get some computers. And Dick and I actually set up the first computer lab- one of the early ones on campus if not well the earliest one- in King Hall. And uhm.. but we bought--.

Riggins: The impetus was for the Summer Ventures students...

Andrew Hayes: Right.

Riggins: ... could (inaudible).

Andrew Hayes: But they just needed it in the summer, and- and then we needed it all year. But even things like uhm.. oh setting up- I mean converting the old uh.. language lab that had the carrels with the walls between them, you know, in- in rows; and we took those partitions out and put 'em under the- the tables as keyboard trays for these Tandy 1000's that we bought. So those continued and--.

Riggins: That would have been permitted- yes, definitely.

Andrew Hayes: Those continued in that room until we moved out of that building, you know. So I suspect they--.

Riggins: When was this, do you remember?

Andrew Hayes: Oh gosh, it was in the Tandy 1000 days. So it was right after the DOS computers were developed. And we had a smaller lab of TRS-80's, the Radio Shack's. But we- we made hay, Dick and I both, uh.. because again going back to this being kind of like a high school, the local administrative leaders were not really that clued in to end-of-year money. So what we had- what Dick and I had was this list of hardware that we had a vendor ready to deliver to us on the last day of the fiscal year so that we could- because the money was there but it's got to be spent today, and they would bring it over here. So that's how we got the first computers, early computers on campus. Uhm.. so, you know, Dick has been very close to education over the years. But it was uhm- uh.. an interesting time because so many of the people who are the senior leaders here in computer applications or telecommunications or whatever, started here as beginners. And, you know, they were beginners when I was a- a faculty member here early on, and worked very closely with them over time. So, you know, Bobby Miller was- grew up as Bobby Miller the- the computer operator. And, you know, so it's those kinds of things that--.

Riggins: And he's still here- around, yes.

Andrew Hayes: Oh yes, yes.

Riggins: I need to talk to him too.

Andrew Hayes: So we've- we've grew up- but already had identities with so many of these people who've gone on into university level positions and established themselves quite nicely, thank you (laughs). So uh.. it's just been fun over the years. Uh.. and so much of that uhm- uh.. beginning came out of that Faculty Dining Room. And we got to meet people from all over the campus, you know people in--. You know, I was in- into political science or sociology or psychology or research or statistics or whatever, and those people would be in the- the Faculty Dining Room.

Riggins: Right, just the great old days.

Andrew Hayes: It was, it was. And- and I don't think we have a comparable gathering place now that--. I mean, and part of it is that we're much larger than we were then. But.

Riggins: Right. It would be nice- it would be like starting trying to build a culture now.

Andrew Hayes: Right.

Riggins: I don't know if the new Union will have a Faculty dining area or anything.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. But even if it will, other changes in general society and in higher education as an institution, uhm.. I'm not sure that it's- would- would be.

Riggins: People are more- restrict themselves more today.

Andrew Hayes: Well, we were more into.. doing exciting things and developing the university, and people now are more into taking care of themselves and protecting their own position and getting tenure. And so the- the assumptions have changed, and- and uhm.. I'm not sure that you could go back to what we had and--. We had a good run, we had a good run.

Riggins: Yes. And it was the time, too, of where the university was in its development.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah.

Riggins: Now it's a major player and people have to protect their area, protect their--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, well at least that's the notion, and I think that's more pervasive- universities- universities all over wide.

Riggins: No matter the facts.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. Yeah, it's all over. There are very few places that, you know, find that same kind of uh.. focus on meeting the counting units and- and--. And that was just not a part of the conversation. But at the same time, we had some people doing major research work here and major publications and major writing. And it was- but it was not what you talked about. You talked about your ideas, you didn't talk about how many things you had on your publication list.

Riggins: That's interesting too. You came at a time when it was getting going, research was an expectation, and that was getting to be more of a--; whereas initially people were hired and it wasn't even an issue.

Andrew Hayes: Not to the extent that it is now. I mean, we expected people to be good people in their fields, and- and we assumed that- that those other things would take care of themselves. And we hired mature professionals within higher education and they already had track records of--. Uhm.. you know, one thing that uhm.. Norman Ellis said when he came here from Ohio State- he was associate director of the University Council for Ed Administration. The year after he came here uh.. the American Education and Research Association Conference time came up. And he said, "It's interesting, this year I have to send in a proposal and somebody will review it and decide whether they're gonna accept my presentation topic or not. Last year they called me and asked me how many positions on the program I wanted." So Wilmington was a place that didn't have the institutional uh.. support for the uhm.. national participation. And what I mean by that is, that if I had been at Stanford and wanted to be on, then of course I would've been on the program; if I were from UNCW and wanted to be on a program, then I competed for the last three slots kind of thing. And my advantage was that I had already worked in those circles when I was at the University of Georgia and then here. So I never did have to play those games.

Riggins: You knew the people, they knew you.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, and seldom have I made presentations because I've submitted a proposal and it was accepted; and almost without exception I've done things that people have asked me to do, and that's- that's what I've done, all along. So that's what I've continued to do over the last several years.

Riggins: Right. For you, your track record in--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: But now with the research, it is- it's different. No matter where you are you have to apply, I would think.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: No- maybe. I guess I'm wrong. I guess I'm __________. Yeah.

Andrew Hayes: Well, for example uhm.. I had been here- so we came in '76- I'd been here 12 years and everybody who knew me when I came here was gone on, and they didn't know where I was anymore, and I didn't know where anybody was anymore. And it was kind of an isolated place. Even the- with the exciting program development that we had going, it was still kind of an isolated place. And I just had to get back into the national loop. And uhm.. the Southern Regional Education Board called me- or head of it called me and asked me if I would do an external evaluation for them. So I got back into the national work.

Riggins: Was that an external evaluation of a school or of a--?

Andrew Hayes: No, it was a program that Frank Kenan was- uh.. was funding. And uhm.. that grew into a national uh.. initiative uhm.. called Family Literacy, and Frank Kenan started that project uh.. in 1988, and I started working with him, uh.. doing the external evaluation for a three-year project that they had funded. And the second year of that initiative, Frank pulled the money out of Southern Regional Education Board and set up a national center for family literacy in Louisville, Kentucky. And I continued to work with them throughout that three year project, and then uh.. continued to work with them as director of research and uh.. consulting director of research. And then in '96 and '97 I was full-time, up there- in '96 and half of '97, I was full-time in Louisville working with them, as Director of Research. So I've worked uh.. with grants since 1988, and I never applied for any of those. They were all ones that people contacted me about. We've just- we're just finishing a seven year run on statewide evaluation of comprehensive school reform initiatives in the state, for the State Department of Public Instruction. And they contacted me originally and said would- will you do this?

Riggins: I see, yes.

Andrew Hayes: So uhm.. I- I don't think I've been to a conference that I wasn't an invited speaker for years. So.

Riggins: I see. So I guess it's a more junior thing.

Andrew Hayes: It's just what you get to--. Yeah, yeah.

Riggins: Yes, a more junior thing.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah, in a sense.

Riggins: Or it depends on what you've done and where you are.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah.

Riggins: Well, you mentioned some of the people who you've worked with or who will have influenced you while you were here. Who are some of the other people who made all the difference, made it what it is?

Andrew Hayes: The university or my experience of what?

Riggins: More the school, the university or the School of Education.

Andrew Hayes: Well I think some of those relationships that we established back then--. I mean, Paul for example, Paul Hosier, uh.. they simply seemed to feel comfortable in The School of Education. And uh- uh.. Dick, there's just no way we can ever thank him for what he's done for The School of Education and the university. I think uhm... So it's just a wide range of the folks. Uh.. people like, oh, Bill Overman, uh.. in Psychology, who's done so much for us, with us- we're friends. And so many of the folks there who- in Psychology- who were just such master teachers at engaging their students in their own research. And- and that's the kind of thing that's been uh.. just a unique part- a part of this university over the years. In undergraduate programs for your senior faculty members, as many senior faculty members as do, just bring their students, their undergraduate students into their research projects and have really powerful work that they did. And uh- uh.. for so many years I was on the uh.. student uh.. research committee, and they would make presentations that any faculty member any place would have been pleased if they could make. And--.

Riggins: Wow, so that's been going on--.

Andrew Hayes: Oh, it's been going- yeah.

Riggins: I've seen those posters that they did this year and I was amazed, but the fact that undergraduate research has been a huge part of this--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah, with people like Mark Deleezio [ph?] and- and Bill and uh- uhm.. some of the folks in- in physics and certainly chemistry. And uhm.. they've just been all over the campus uh.. in--. And a number of the people in marine science have just had their undergraduate students for years and years and years, and so many of these people have gone on into graduate programs and uh.. into doctoral programs, and- and have themselves even come back here. But that's been a tradition here in (audio break). Uh.. some of those folks have ever really had the recognition- and- and that the university has- has actually known that it was even going on. It was just one of those things. That's the way we did business here. And it- it was quite a place, uh.. that you could recommend to the best students in the world, that they come here and work with people in several of the areas of the arts and sciences, and they would get experiences that they probably wouldn't otherwise. And it's just the way they did stuff here (laughs).

Riggins: You talked a little bit about what the university was like when you came and how it's evolved. What else can you say about it?

Andrew Hayes: Well I think--.

Riggins: And when you came, Harold Hulon had been the--.

Andrew Hayes: He was Department Chair- yeah.

Riggins: Department Chair. And that was really the first Department Chair. I guess they'd always had courses in education, but--.

Andrew Hayes: Probably, yeah, and--.

Riggins: But what kind of department was it that you inherited, or came to you?

Andrew Hayes: Well it was a- it was a small group of people. There were, I think, six, and they taught people how to--. They- they- they were in arts and sciences, because there was not a separate--. I mean there was only one university wide unit and it was arts and sciences. So they took their arts and sciences program across the departments and then uhm- uh.. they uhm.. had education as a- a component of their program. And uhm.. there were traditional methods courses, mainly uh.. how to do, and that's what it was and that's what most education was. And we simply tried to transform it into a- a thinking field and a professional field, which people actually had analytic models. And there was some serious resistance to it. For example, uh.. Roy and I wanted the students in our beginning course to go into the schools- we wanted to teach them an analytic model- we wanted them to go in and observe, and then we wanted them to come back and as a class analyze what they had seen, using some of the analytic models. And we had faculty who said, "No, we're not gonna do that, we're not going to have those beginning students criticize uh.. an employed teacher's work out here." And we kept saying, "We're gonna have 'em analyzed, we're not gonna have 'em criticized." Uh.. but we- we were never able to pull that off uhm.. because several of those people were teaching those courses and they simply would not do it- and I'm not sure they could, but uhm..- uh.. because they weren't familiar with the analytic models we were- that we wanted to teach these students. So, you know, they were doing what most schools of education were doing and that was teaching methods. So if you were- were teaching--.

Riggins: What does that involve? Lesson plans?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: I don't know. I'm not trained in that way.

Andrew Hayes: But that- that's what you did. You uhm..- uh.. if you were teaching somebody a reading instruction course, you taught them how to plan and- and do reading teaching. You didn't teach them about the nature of the mind and how it processes language and how it- it acquires meaning and things of that type. And- and then, what are the varieties of learning and how to vary instruction for the varieties of learning and so on. They were taught methods, they were taught traditional sequences of instruction, traditional methods, traditional testing programs, and- and then how to use those. So it was much more of a how-to-do-it kind of program. And that's what most teacher education programs have been over the years. Uhm.., you know, there's been some press to- to change that. But still, uh.. with what Roy and I came up with, the- the notion of teaching as a profession, uhm.. that was a real shift, and- and it served us very well. I mean we had uh.. accreditation site visits for years around here and just never a question raised about the conceptual foundations for it. And most of the people who were on those teams wanted to come here to work, after they left. So, it served us very well.

Riggins: Oh, and when Dr. Tyndall came, he must have felt comfortable ____________.

Andrew Hayes: Well Roy had- had worked with uh..- with Bob as a graduate student and you know. So same kinda background. Uhm.. but the norms were pretty much in place by the time he came. Yeah.

Riggins: Well what are some of the--? Were you going to say something or--?

Andrew Hayes: No, go ahead, do your question.

Riggins: Can you describe the positions you held here? You mentioned you were interim dean for awhile, chair for--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, I was chair for probably a couple of years, uhm.. of specialty studies, and then I was interim dean. Uhm.. I guess what I've been doing uh.. for the last uh.. almost 20 years has been working on externally funded projects of various forms. And uh.. so--.

Riggins: Well, just probably where they call you up and say, can you do that?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. So I've slid less- uh.. I'm- well more and more into project work to almost full-time in the last few years, to uhm..- I mean away from teaching. So I've not done much teaching in the last few years. Uhm.. that's done--.

Riggins: That sounds like a variety of parts but, so, that's when you described where your--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. Yeah, and- and uhm.. the National Family Literacy--.

Riggins: The Family Literacy.

Andrew Hayes: You know, that was developed with uhm..- working with Sharon Darling, who was then the Director of Adult Education for the State of Kentucky, and she developed this program in which parents and children were brought together in schooling at the same time. These were drop-out parents who- who now have their own children and they want to do something to get their act back together. And they were brought into a program together and you ran a whole program for the family and you were trying to develop the family capacity to deal with whatever family issues and events. And Frank Kenan funded that originally. Uhm.. there's 7 sites, 4 in North Carolina and 3 in Louisville, Kentucky, and I do the evaluation for that. And then uh.. a couple of years later- uh.. three years later maybe- Toyota Motor Corporation got interested in it and they actually again sought out Sharon and- and uhm.. made the first major uh.. grant, uh.. after the Kenans, to the National Center. And uhm- uh.. that was to set up programs in five cities where Toyota had operations. And we had- these were major cities around the country.

But in the meantime uh.. Congress, some of the leaders in- in Congress, had gotten interested in it, and we pass- worked to pass uh.. Federal legislation to fund programs like this. We called it National Even Start. And that continued uhm.. and developed up until a couple of years ago when it was running at about 250 million dollars a year, with national funding. So uh.. and it got to the point that we started working with all the states to develop state policies for those. And uh.. then uhm.. Toyota's funding continued. They're up to something--. They're still a major player and we're up to 23, 24,000- 24 million dollars of total funding. And then uh.. UPS got into it and- and they've continued to fund now for a number of years, uh.. operations- a national center and funding of programs around the country where they have headquarters. Bureau of Indian Affairs got into it with large time funding- uh.. Knight Foundation, a big funder. And this has just continued to roll. And I have continued to work; uhm- uh.. I did the National Evaluation Studies for uh.. the National Center for years, and then uhm..- and I guess early '88, I mean early uhm..- it was late '95, we were at a conference with a number of people from Congress and Sharon just said, "We've got to put together all of what you know from this." So she gave- gave me a grant to buy out my time for the full year and I lived in- in Louisville. Uhm.. I don't know what it's called- I guess a reassignment leave. Uhm.. but it was a full-time leave for the 12 months- so for '96. And all I did was write and wrote a number of uhm- uh.. manuscripts that were used for national distribution, for national policy making, and uh.. then I testified before Congress on the reauthorization of Title One and- and Even Start. And so I wrote all of that. And so uhm.. Bill Goodling, who was the Congressman from uh.. Pennsylvania who was the main sponsor of this for years, used all of my materials for presentations for years, and for his own testimony before his own House committees, uhm.. on Even Start reauthorization and funding.

Riggins: Even Start- yes.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. And I continued that through mid-year of '97, and then came back here and worked. But I'm on the National Board- you know, the Board of Directors of the National Center for Family Literacy. In fact I have a meeting out there next Monday, a Board meeting. Uhm.. and continued to work at the policy level, uhm.. in uhm.. family literacy.

Riggins: Wow. Well that's--. I guess it was published as a government document (inaudible).

Andrew Hayes: Most of it- most of those- those works are uh.. published as the National Center for Family Literacy Monographs. So, you know, they're- they're NCFL publications- my name's not even on 'em, uh.. for the most part, unless it's just a forward or something like that. But I also did work in evaluation, developed uh.. training modules for them in evaluation, program evaluation, program design. And I've done a lot of uhm.. evaluations. I did--. A number of states were early adopters of that. Kentucky was one of the early ones, under Sharon, and I did a statewide- statewide evaluation of their program, one year. And uh.. Arizona was also one of the early states and I did a statewide evaluation for them a couple of years. And then Hawaii was actually the first state that wanted her- uhm.. legislation for family literacy, and Sharon and a couple of her staff and I went to Hawaii in '89, to work with the legislature to uh.. develop the legislation- and this was under the sponsorship of then Governor John Waihee. And we started a pilot program in Hawaii in '89, and I worked with them for five years, uh.. eight weeks out of the year, over there, through the implementation and evaluation of that program for- for five years, and continued to work with them on developing state standards and so on. In fact, I still go back and forth and email with them- and did some stuff there.

Riggins: What are the results of--? Because I'm sure- I know you guys study the results and make sure that the programs, that they're working.

Andrew Hayes: Well it's part of the difficulty in- in education is that uhm.. there's a real resistance to adopt model design standards. And uhm.. so that's one of the things that I've fought for years is getting people to implement the models well enough to be effective. And uhm.. there's been a--.

Riggins: In order to design the program or in order to--?

Andrew Hayes: No, we've got the designs. I worked those out in--.

Riggins: Yes, right.

Andrew Hayes: But at the national level, the Even Start has had so little evidence of overall effectiveness that Bush has been trying to cut that out for the last two or three years. And funding- uh.. House authorization right now is something like 70 million dollars, down from 250. So the overall impact has not been anything like as great as it should have been because most of the programs just were not implemented well enough. So, for example, the last time I did a statewide evaluation in Kentucky, I said that none of the programs in the State are implemented well enough to meet the design standards and to be effective. And in- the last time I did one in Arizona, there were 3 out of the 33 that were good enough to be effective, and the others were not. And Hawaii, the same issue- you know, so.

Riggins: I bet there's resistance to implementing the--.

Andrew Hayes: A design. So if--. Yeah.

Riggins: But then if the standards are there, they know what they should do.

Andrew Hayes: Right.

Riggins: But is it because of the name or--?

Andrew Hayes: They just--. No, it's just a resistance to do it. You keep on doing things the way you've been doing it.

Riggins: The old way.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. And that's the difficulty we've had in the last seven years. We've been doing the Comprehensive School Reform Evaluation for the State of North Carolina and we've worked with 172 schools, around the state.

Riggins: Yes, talk about that. That's going on--. You and Hathia--.

Andrew Hayes: Well it's ending now.

Riggins: But you've been involved.

Andrew Hayes: But we've been doing that. And these schools were- were funded with Federal grants administered by the State to adopt one of the nationally validated old school reform models. And uhm.. probably no more than.. 6 or 8 out of that 172 actually got close to implementing the model well enough to- to have effects. In fact many of the schools that we've worked with over the years are among the low performing- performing schools that Judge Manning's talking about now. So it's just that while we know what to do, it's getting it done at the local uh.. administrative and political levels. And there's just a real resistance to doing anything based on a- uh.. a known sound design.

Riggins: Yes. Well at least you've done the work up front and that you could be busy there.

Andrew Hayes: Right. So that's what we wanna do now is- is write about it even more uh.. explicitly than- than we have in the past. And- and when you're not working in that context you can say some of the dirty linen that you really wanted to say all along, about some of the games that people play for testing and to beat the testing game and things of that type.

Riggins: Well, let's talk about that. You'll be retiring in a few weeks.

Andrew Hayes: Right.

Riggins: What are some of your plans? Do you still plan to write in the field, to keep up with your field?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, we- we've got uhm.. about a half a dozen books that we really do want to write, and we've got materials for them. So we- we need to go.

Riggins: You've been doing that.

Andrew Hayes: Hathia- yeah. Uh.. we need to do one on school reform, uhm.. and we have got materials already organized for that, it's just a matter of putting it into the form to- that we want for publication.

Riggins: Will that include the testing, high stakes testing?

Andrew Hayes: Well another one's going to be on accountability, uh.. and uhm.. the more you know about that the worse it gets. Uh.. there's uhm.. little about that that's justifiable in technical, professional standards. Uh.. another one is uhm- uh.. teaching as a profession, and we have uhm.., with our colleagues in England, we've already got pretty much of that completed and we just need to redo it and get it in the book form. And then I need to do one on family literacy. And that one's been developed over a period of years, and- and is- uh.. and I already got one that's even been formatted in for evaluation- project design and evaluation. And we've got a number of articles, topics. But uh.. that's what we're planning to do.

Riggins: Well that sounds--. Maybe the one that- teaching as a profession, is that with your colleague who's coming soon?

Andrew Hayes: No.

Riggins: A different colleague.

Andrew Hayes: No, uhm.. we met a couple from England in uhm..- actually four people from England, five people from England, in 1996, at a conference in St. Louis, and we just fell in love with each other, and they were trying to do some of the same things there that Hathia and I were trying to do here. And uhm.. we started using some of our project money to go back and forth, and we worked with them in schools in England and they came over and worked with us in schools in Duplin County for five years. And during that time we were writing and- and developing conceptual frameworks. And we took the outcome from that work and also another grant, that we had, developed a system for appraisal of teaching in North Carolina for the Department of Public Instruction, based on that- those models. Uhm.. and uhm- uh.. we just continued to write about that. Uhm.. so (sighs) we- they have worked with us- or at least two of those people, Phil and Penny Hagarty, have worked with us since we started with the Comprehensive School Reform Evaluation. They would come over usually two months each year in- usually in October and then again in February, and make site visits to schools with us. So uhm.. Hathia and Phil would go to a school and Penny and I would go to a school; so we'd make two site visits a day to- to schools. And we just have worked together enough that we don't have to explain what we mean by anything. And so--. They were here last in March and- and we did some of the last designs for that book; and we plan to do that.

Riggins: That's the thing.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: The teacher who's coming this year, do you want to talk some about that?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: That's a course that will be offered.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: By the School of Education?

Andrew Hayes: Uh-hum. Uh.. when Hathia was working with the Department of Public Instruction, before we came to Wilmington, uhm.. there were some people from Winston-Salem and others who kept asking the state to do something with them, using uh.. drama, drama in teaching. And uhm.. I'm not really sure how Hathia found out about Dorothy, but apparently some of them knew about her. But uhm.. Hathia went to England and lived with Dorothy for six weeks or so and traveled around the country with her, visiting her student sites when she was working in drama. And uh.. then she came back to the Department of Public Instruction in uh.. Raleigh, when- with her job. And Dorothy came over and they traveled around the state, just doing workshops on using methods of drama for teaching. And then uhm.. we stayed in touch. And then after we came here, Hathia had her come here and do uhm.. an Institute- I forget how many, it was a couple of weeks I guess. And then we- we've just stayed in touch over the years. And I forget when it was, probably '88 or somewhere along in there, there was an international conference that was a celebration of Dorothy and her work, in uhm- uh.. Lancaster, England, University of Lancaster. And Hathia and I went over and uh.. participated in that conference, with drama folks from all over the world who were there. And uhm.. what we did was an analysis of her work from the perspective of these analytic models that I had been using over the years- and of course it matches directly. She didn't know- didn't know how to describe it that way, Dorothy didn't. But we've just stayed close to her and whenever we were working in England we'd go visit whenever we could. And uh- uh.. we stayed in touch by telephone and mail. And then we went over there uhm- uh.. Christmas, when we were visiting uh.. in England, and visited her at her home, and uh.. she just said she'd like to do one more trip to the States, and- and asked if- if we had any interest in that, and we bid immediately and said yes, we would.

So uh.. the methods are extremely powerful, but it takes an extremely bright, thinking person to use them. And they are technically correct but inconsistent with a lot of practices in American education. And that's been one of the things that I- uh.. been one of the points of interest for me, because uh.., for example, uhm.. if she wants someone (coughs) to learn or to acquire a- a perspective, learn some specific skills- in the United States we tend to try to put them in that situation to give them whatever it is. If- if they can't deal with a family matter, we put them in the middle of that family matter to deal with it. She would never do that. She would always create something that's structurally parallel, so that what you have to learn is what you need over here- but the situation doesn't have any baggage with you. So she takes you out of that context and does nothing to- to remind you of that, and brings it into- uh.. brings you into this new situation, and you work within this new situation. For example, I saw her work with a group of uh.. teenage uh.. mothers in England who were abusing- uh.. neglecting their children- they had young babies and they- and they were neglecting them. And the social service agencies hadn't been able to get them to be responsible for their children. So she heard that some of 'em liked the zoo. And there was an article in the paper about this little bird that was a last known example of that species. It was in a zoo. So she asked them if they would like to be zookeepers, and take care of that bird- you know it's gonna die but what we want is for that bird to live comfortably, happily, as long as we can make that bird live. And they said yes, they would like to do that. So she creates a drama; I mean, she'd never go to the zoo. She creates the drama, she uses mental processes and imaginations, but real study; so you have to find out everything there is about this bird- where it comes from. And so she can blend curriculum areas, you know like geography and- and social sciences and everything else into that situation, and they find out what they've got to know to preserve this- to keep this bird going. And- and they have to know what kind of schedule you have to keep and all this kind of stuff. And she's working with them for several days, and then after several days she comes in and- uh.. in the morning, and these girls are sitting there crying. And she asks them what's the matter? And they started talking about how badly they were treating their babies.

Riggins: Really?

Andrew Hayes: So she- she created a situation in which that bird was completely dependent on them for its life, and was just as fragile- and never even made reference to their children. Now if they had not seen that, at some point she would have continued to make that linkage. But what she's able to do is teach the traditional academic curriculum within the context of that drama. At the same time she makes a profound impact on people's lives. And she's worked with Heads of State. For example, she's worked with some of the African countries that were squabbling when this one wanted to work with this one but there's another one in the middle and it says you're not comin' across our country. So she's done that same kind of thing with heads of state or with heads of corporations and- or managers in corporations or with whoever. So.

Riggins: This institute, is it- that you're having in a couple of weeks did you say or--?

Andrew Hayes: It starts the 17th of July, yes.

Riggins: Oh. You're having 20 of the CW students signed up to take it for credit but not--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, we'll have a few. We have some from the NCG and some from uh.. some of the colleges in the Atlanta area and some from- from Michigan and other places. So they'll be coming in from all over.

Riggins: As well as professional people in the field.

Andrew Hayes: And there'll be a number of professional and- and they'll want to know how was it we were able to pull this off (laughs).

Riggins: Because we have Hathia.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah. One of the things that might be interesting to know is completely unrelated to university and the work and things that we're known for here, uh.. at least probably the arts and uh.. arts-related areas.

Riggins: I wanted to ask you about that too.

Andrew Hayes: (sighs) When we came to town, there was no public radio and if you wanted classical music on the radio you had to have a 40 foot tower, and occasionally you could get UNC Chapel Hill or Charleston or whatever it happened to be. And uhm.. so we just started working with community groups, and one thing leads to another and eventually you get a public radio station. And the St. John's Museum was a struggling little art gallery and- and uh.. so we just continued to work with agencies and institutions and uhm.. I got on the boards with uh.. these and actually helped to build the first public radio station here and uh.. did the studies to- in the transmitter tower area so that we could actually get a permit to broadcast without opposition from channel six. I've- I've been in old houses down in the Green Swamp area to do that kind of thing. But we were very fortunate, I guess, to meet Old Wilmington when we came to town, mainly through the arts. And so Wilmington to us has been quite a different kind of place than it is for most faculty members because, you know, the Camerons are just friends of ours, they're not somebody whose names you know; I mean, Bruce is Bruce and (laughs) and Hilda- uh.. I mean uhm.. Hilda Eckles, who died just a couple of weeks ago, was (sighs) just a dear friend. And uhm...

Riggins: And Bruce's wife, Louisa?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, Louisa, yeah. And when the first professional director of St. John's was uhm...

Riggins: Randall.

Andrew Hayes: Asked--. No, no, the first professional director was Allan Aiches, uh.. and he came to town the same time we did and he and I worked together very closely, and we installed exhibitions, and we arranged touring exhibitions, and we worked all over the country in- in art and all of the study in arts. So, I met so many of the artists all over the state. And uh.. we actually paid grants for- to- to develop uh.. touring exhibitions. And uhm.. we did that. And I worked with him enough with installations that--. And he was the best installer I have ever seen. I mean, we've been in the Smithsonian and he'd say, "Let's see, if you move this one there, and that one here"- and you could just see the exhibition shining. I can do the same thing now. So I can install an exhibition. So Hathia and I went to a museum in Georgia oh a couple of months ago and completely took it apart and completely reinstalled everything in a day and a half. So, you know, I can do it and I can do it very quickly, very effectively.

Riggins: Reenvisions of faith and--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, yeah, I used to do 'em.

Riggins: Yes, and I want you guys to come and kind of--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, and so I- I had told him, look, here's what I'm thinking about- you know, if you buy that, when I start, you leave (laughs) because I'm not going to go shape this thing through it. So we did it. And- and so I've gotten to be very good through working with Allan, on that kind of thing. But when he was- was dismissed, from his Director position, there was quite some time there that uh.. we didn't have a director and I was it. So I served as Interim Director, uhm.. during that time and uh.. coordinated the search and then hired Wren. So Wren and I stayed close over the years. And we started close because uh.., you know, I coordinated the search, but then when he came to town he was a young man without a lot of money, and I rewired--. He bought an old house downtown and I rewired the house for him. So uh.., you know, we go back into the arts that way. But there was a man in town who had uhm.. oh been coming to town since he was 16, with Old Wilmington, with the Cameron family and the MacMillan family and all those people, when he was in Design School as a young boy. Uh.. and we got to be friends with him because his interest when he came back to town to retire was uh.. St. John's Museum. And uhm.. he got to the point that he just depended on me to make sure that things went okay there. Well Sam was an interior decorator for the rich and famous all over the world in his- had done houses and castles all over France and- and uhm.., you know, wherever. So I met his friends; he- he became friends with all these folks. And I met them, and uhm.. just got into a kind of- of social system that most faculty members never really have the opportunity to. But these people were just real friends. And then when Wren died, uh...

Riggins: Stepped in again.

Andrew Hayes: Cameron's- Bruce Cameron came to me at the funeral and said, "Andy, what are we gonna do? What can you do to help?" And I said, "Whatever you want me to do." So they asked me to be Interim Director, and I was for close to a year and then coordinated the search that resulted in uh.. the hiring of uh.. Deborah. And uh.., you know, uh.. I've got a meeting Thursday with a lady from Houston who is endowed in a new museum in Houston and she wants me to help with the search for the director for that position. But that's just led us into a whole different kind of- of field and- and into the- the arts and- and tying it in. And uh...

Riggins: Arts administration is not too different, I guess, from what you--.

Andrew Hayes: It's not any different, yeah.

Riggins: Not any different, yes.

Andrew Hayes: But it's also been just an area of interest to us, and it's made being in Wilmington quite a different uh.. experience for us than it was for most. But also, you know, when you start as a teacher, when you start as a farmer in- in uh.. South Georgia (sighs), the thing that makes so much difference over a lifetime uh.. are the people you meet. And- and I talked about uhm.. the principal's wife who taught me to fly. And uh.. she was the first woman to graduate from the War College, uh.. to complete--.

Riggins: the War College?

Andrew Hayes: From the War College.

Riggins: Oh, where is that?

Andrew Hayes: It's in Montgomery, Alabama. But she was the first female graduate from that. And- and I met people that you just- Barney Oldsfield you know or--. Her father was the last person living who was at the Wright Brothers' flight. And he had a little Mercedes roadster, and we horsed all over South Georgia when he'd come out and pick me up from high school and we'd go out; and- and he had a big boat down at Panama City and we'd ride around. And- and he was at the reception for the first man on the moon. So you- you get to know people who are just different. And then uhm- uh.. at Georgia, Halpin was- he just- he could pick up the phone and anybody would do anything he wanted to. And you- you were then--.

Riggins: How does he do that? Yes.

Andrew Hayes: Well, that was- the Good Old Boy system worked very well, uh.. and anybody knew that if Halpin called, whoever he was referring to was good enough for him to make that call. And you never had to prove yourself. You did, because you had to meet his expectations.

Riggins: Yes, initially.

Andrew Hayes: But then when we met here, when we came here, Sam was connected into a wealth circle that had just taste, refinement.

Riggins: Sam?

Andrew Hayes: Sam Hughes, the- the art- the interior designer. And we became very close with him. And uhm.. think about things--.

Riggins: (audio breaks) interior designer or--?

Andrew Hayes: Yes, yeah, Sam.

Riggins: We interviewed Dan Cameron and we went to his home and he told us about- he showed us his home and said that he had worked with the same interior designer for years.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. But see Sam uh.. started coming here with Henry MacMillan when he and Henry, when Sam and Henry were at Parsons School of Design, and they were both 16 or 17-years-old. And Sam had no family. And uhm.. so he would come here on holidays. And he met uh.. the Cameron children, Bruce and Dan and Rachel and Hilda, Bobby- all of those- Bobby was younger. And then all of the Wilmington families after that. So he came here and retired uh.. just before we came here, a couple of years after that. But he had no family, whatsoever. So uh.. as I said, we'd met all of these friends of his. And one day he called me and he said, "Andy, can you go- you and Hathia go to Southern Pines with me on Saturday? We want to have lunch with Therese." And I said sure; well I knew who Therese was. She was one of his friends from New York and she had a little house in the stables- it's the one over in Southern Pines. So we picked him up on Saturday morning, went to Southern Pines. She had her staff there, uh.. in this little house that he had done for her over there, as well an apartment in the stables and so on. And uhm.. there was a man and his woman- and his wife, who were from New York, and she- he was her attorney. And they were- I mean it's one of the largest law firms in New York and he was apprenticing. So we had a nice day, a nice lunch, and then we went out to the stables and had a nice gathering, came back in here. And uh.. on Tuesday, Sam called and he said, "Well, you passed." And I said, "What're you talking about Sam?" And he said, "You didn't know why we went to- over there, Saturday?" And I said, "To have lunch with Therese." He said, "No, she just wanted to make sure you were okay before she gave us the Cassatt prints." So, you know, we have the 13 Cassatt prints, which is one of the--.

Riggins: Yes, Mary Cassatt prints.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, the only collection. And Therese- and Sam and Zelena Brunswig of Brunswig and Fields, the fabric house, had talked her into buying those things, through the '30's, and now she gave 'em to us. So those are the kinds of things--.

Riggins: And how did that evolve? Had that been worked out--?

Andrew Hayes: Through- through Sam; I mean, she gave 'em to the museum because of her long-term relationship with Sam. But, you know, she wanted--. I was--. She identified me with the museum and she wanted to make sure I was okay before she did that. So those are the kinds of things--.

Riggins: Were you interim director then or just--?

Andrew Hayes: I forget. I was either on the board or president of the board or some times. But those are the kinds of things that, you know, just one at the time, over a period of time. And then, as I said, Sam had no family. So- but he had an- uhm.. a- a fund manager who was- had grown up in Wilmington but had moved to California, to San Francisco, and had become a big fund manager there and had his own company and--. And he and I were co-executors of Sam's estate, and we got to be very close friends during all of that. And so now that man is giving the museum a large collection of contemporary art work and a fairly substantial sum of- of money. So that will come in. And- and those are the kinds of things that just feed--. You know, so how does anything happen? Who knows? But- but it's been fun for us because we've all been part of it. And uh...

Riggins: You've developed your own enormous art collection- right?

Andrew Hayes: Yeah, we do, we have a substantial one- yeah, yeah.

Riggins: I heard the story about how you first- how you bought your first piece of sculpture.

Andrew Hayes: (laughs) Yeah, yeah, and it's just gotten worse since then.

Riggins: No, not worse, not worse. Well I'm sure that you don't always- you have your own preferences. Do you have separate collections, you and Hathia?

Andrew Hayes: No, we don't. I mean, there's some things that I probably wouldn't have bought. But uh..- and probably have some things she wouldn't have bought. But uh.. that's the way it goes.

Riggins: And what's next? You mentioned a book that you will be working on.

Andrew Hayes: Well that's the main thing.

Riggins: That's more of your professional work.

Andrew Hayes: I think we just have to see. Uhm.. I don't plan to get into uhm.. being a head hunter for museums, although I probably will do that one for the one in Houston. But uhm.. I'll--. We just- we have worked for seven days a week uhm- uh.. every week of the year, for 12, 14 hours for so long that--. We do have a nice garden and we plan to spend some time in that (laughs), and uh..- and rest a little bit. So that will be a real shock to us. But we have a number of things that are gonna keep us going on into next year. And uhm- uh.. so we'll do those and--.

Riggins: Continue your work with the Wilmington art community?

Andrew Hayes: Whatever they ask me to do. I try to stay out of it except for whatever they ask me to do, and- and uh.. generally I do whatever they ask me to do- yeah. And people- I- I- I guess fortunately uh.. we have the ear of all the sides and they all uh.. call us when they want to complain about something, and- and we do that. But- and that's okay.

Riggins: You use your analytical skills, if they ask for advice or--.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah. Or even if they don't, yeah, yeah. But at least we get to know about it. And we have a museum down in Georgia, the Thomas Museum there, where we started, with the original sculpture collection, and uh.. we stay in touch with them. And I'm putting together a PA system for them now which I got down there. And uh.. Sara Thomas is having her 99th birthday on July the 8th. So we're going down for her 99th birthday party. And we--.

Riggins: Is this near where you're from, then?

Andrew Hayes: No, it's uh..(sighs)- uh.. between Augusta and Atlanta, on uhm.. Interstate 20, just off Interstate 20, out from Madison, Georgia. It's on a beautiful farm that uh.. the son owned and- owns, and have a large museum there.

Riggins: Well that's another story. I'll have to have you come back and maybe tell me about how you got started starting this museum. But I don't--. It sounds like a- we've been going quite awhile.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: But I appreciate your coming in.

Andrew Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: I've learned a lot.

Andrew Hayes: (laughs)

Riggins: If I find that when I talk to people who know you, I'm sure I'm going to be back--. I feel like--.

[audio ends abruptly]

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