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Interview with Hathia Hayes, June 13, 2006 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Interview with Hathia Hayes, June 13, 2006
June 13, 2006
Hathia Hayes retired from UNCW's Watson School of Education in 2006, after over thirty years in the department. After joining the faculty of the Department of Education in 1976, Dr. Hayes served as Department Chair for 11 years and played an instrumental role in many aspects of the developing Education program, including the Education Lab and the master's program in Elementary Education. Dr. Hayes also worked to obtain grants to improve the practicum semester for Education majors, to develop and sustain relationships between the department and the public school system, and to foster many other programs within the Watson School of Education. Aside from the wealth of information regarding the School of Education, this interview with Dr. Hayes includes discussion of other esteemed former and current faculty members, as well as her reflections on the distinct character and unique qualities of UNCW as a whole.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Hayes, Hathia Interviewer: Riggins, Adina Date of Interview: 6/14/2006 Series: Voices of UNCW Length: 1 hour, 52 minutes

Riggins: Today is June 14, 2006. This is Adina Riggins, I'm the archivist at UNCW. I'm here today as an interviewer for a very special guest. I'm so pleased that you're here. We are interviewing Dr. Hathia Hayes for the voices of UNCW Oral History Program, faculty/staff section. This is a very important part of my job. I interview people who have been affiliated with the university, played important roles in the life and history at the university, especially faculty and staff. Well, I already introduced you, but if you could, please just state your name for the video tape.

Hathia Hayes: I'm Hathia Hayes, and I teach in the Watson School of Education, retired as of this uh... year, 2006, officially, I guess, July 31. So I've been in the Watson School of Education, or in the Department of Education, at UNCW for 30 years.

Riggins: For over 30 years. Did you come in 1975?

Hathia Hayes: Six. 1976. Came as a professor in reading education. And at that time the-- it wasn't a Watson School, it was a Department of Education. And I taught math, and language arts and reading, and did just about every kind of chair of committee that we had. So it started out as a very small department with very few faculty members.

Riggins: Yeah, what was that like when you came? There may have been just a few people there. Dr. Paz Bartolome, was she there?

Hathia Hayes: Paz was there. Saul Bachner, Eleanor Wright, Betty Stike, Calvin Doss. Then when I came to North Carolina, I had just finished the doctorate, and I worked with the Department of Public Instruction as the only elementary school language arts consultant for this state. And I did that for four years. And so, at that time, the State Agency was a very rich service agency. We were really all about helping schools. Helping central office people with good programs and good practices in their school districts. So I traveled the whole state, and as part of that work, served on a lot of accreditation teams for universities. And in that w- way got into just about every university in this state. And so we were working a lot at that point in time with what we called 'individualizing the instruction.' And we were trying very hard to help teachers learn how to meet the needs of all children. And so we did a lot of workshops, a lot of demonstration teaching, a lot of work in schools, a lot of conferences, a lot of just informal consultation with school districts. And uhm... it really-- because I had taught elementary school in Georgia, and uhm... I was just newly out of the doctoral program at University of Georgia with a doctorate in reading. And so it's real important to me to try to use what I knew in that work. And one of the things that really made a very big impression on me was, public school people felt like universities were ivory tower places. And they didn't make a good connect, always, between what universities had to offer and what public schools were all about. And that wasn't in just North Carolina. I mean, that was pretty much a national pattern. But uhm... my husband, Andrew, was working at that time with the Frank Porter Graham Center in Chapel Hill. So we lived in Ral-- Chapel Hill and then Raleigh. And uhm... we had worked with Roy Harkin who was a professor there, I think associate dean at the time at UNC Chapel Hill. And so he and Andy knew each other, and uhm... Andy can tell you more about that. But uh... at some point Roy was invited to come down to UNCW and think about being the department chair with the idea of becoming dean, is my understanding of how that worked. And uhm... so he came before, obviously, before we did, and uhm... there were two positions that he was recruiting for, and- and uh... he talked to Andy and I about applying for those. So uhm... Andy was traveling nationally with all the Frank Porter Graham evaluation work, all across the country, and I was traveling all the st-- I mean, all the counties in North Carolina. And so we really just kind of thought, you know, how much more of this can we do? And uhm... so we came down and- and talked to Dr. Harkin, and subsequently interviewed with the uh... Watson School. Well, it wasn't the Watson School, but with the education faculty. And I guess one of the interesting stories to tell you, uhm... is in uhm... they decided that they would do a group interview with Andrew and I, and the faculty. And so we were talking along, and you know, asking the t-- many professional questions. And- and Dr. Bartolome said, well, we might as well ask the question that we all want to know the answer to. And I- and I said, "Yeah?" And she said, "Do you all get along?"

Riggins: (laughs)

Hathia Hayes: And I said, "Well, Paz, uhm... I can tell you that Andy and I got married in 1962, we went through our masters program at the same time. We went through our doctoral program at the same time. And we've lived through it. And I don't think you're going to have any problems with Andy and I getting along together. You may have trouble with us; but we won't have trouble with each other." So that was just kind of a curious question. And- and yet, I've always valued Paz's forthright...

Riggins: Definitely.

Hathia Hayes: ... uh.. question, because it just put everything out on the table.

Riggins: Right.

Hathia Hayes: And in a small department when you have a husband and wife working uh.. together, you want to be sure that it's going to be a happy relationship. And I- I certainly uh.. had a high value for that. And one of the things that I've uhm.. had very clear in my mind is when a- a husband and wife, or close family members work together in an endeavor of any kind, there's a phrase I use, separation of church and state, that you really keep your personal business separate from your professional business. And you keep your uh.. your mind on the intentions of program improvement, program development, what's best for students. And you don't get into this political thing about who you're married to, and what relationships are, and all that. So that- that was really a- a big uh.. thing. Because not only do you personally have to have that mindset, people have to come to trust that that's true. And uhm.. and they have to work through their own ideas about, you know, relationships. So it's- it's been a very interesting journey. 'Cause bec-- you know, when we came in '76, I was just teaching, and Andy was just teaching. But the whole reason that I really wanted-- and was willing to come from the state agency, because I thought that work was really important-- was I felt like that public schools needed to learn how to use the expertise of university faculty, and programs, in much deeper and richer ways, and there didn't need to be that great divide. And I...

Riggins: I definitely agree with that. It's so many important resources in higher education.

Hathia Hayes: Right.

Riggins: Or especially in the Department of Education or School of Education for the public schools.

Hathia Hayes: And I thought universities could be very well served in thinking about uh.. what are teachers experiencing in their practice, and what're the issues. So how could we work closely together to just understand what good schooling is, and how to improve it. So when Dr. Harkin came and talked about, you know, this would be an opportunity to really design an education program, I thought it was a very treasured experience. Andy and I-- I'm from Louisiana, I was born in New Orleans, and I grew up in a small town, Minden, in North Louisiana, and uh.. all of my working, all of my life I've been in the South. And uhm.. I think southerners have a certain intentionality about making a difference. And uh.. so it was always part of who I am, and my family to-- you are responsible for being a good steward of your own values, and uh.. it's very important that you take that forward, and improve the community, or the school, or the educational group that you work with. And uhm.. so there- there was always, you know, that-- it was a major influence, I guess. But I was thinking about that, because with uhm.. when we came to UNCW, I think there were 2,500 students, and uhm.. the Department of Education maybe had eight people, something like that, small number. And it had been my experience that I had worked in a small school district in north- north of Athens, Georgia, Oglethorpe County. They had three schools. And it was the first year of integration, and my job was to write a grant, which I did, for a million dollars that would create an educational program that would serve the needs of all students. And that was my job there. So uh.. I could see from that experience that small is not bad. You know, a lot of people think big university, ya-ya-ya, and I always thought if you really were serious about making a difference, you find a little microcosm of a place that has the same interest and value-set, and develop a relationship with people that you can design and do something that is really very, very hard to pull off in a bigger institution, whether-- whatever kind of institution you're talking about. So I wasn't put off at all uh.. by the smallness of UNCW, and uhm.. several faculty in education didn't have doctorates. That didn't worry me, because I had high value for practitioners, and I thought the mix was really a good thing. The department of education was uh.. very strong, and we had a real dedication to working to make uh.. good teachers. So uhm.. that- that was kind of like-- I didn't see that as a dilemma or not a good thing. I just saw that as something to build from. I guess the other thing that really brought us to UNCW was we had such respect for Roy Harkin and his leadership, and his ability to bring people together and support people in their- their own growth and development. And he was so much a believer in students, and student growth. We didn't have the same level of student in terms of SAT scores, and uh.. grade uhm.. grade scores. There was just uhm.. you know, being a teacher was still a very highly respected job, and- and a lot of people, even more so than now, were first generation uh.. college students. And so they weren't always the best qualified student in terms of- of academic credentials, but they were always really had high value for teaching. So it- it was very good all the way around. Uhm...

(crew talk; construction noise)

Hathia Hayes: (laughs) It's just part of growth, isn't it?

Riggins: Part of the times. If we can back up a little bit and hear a little bit about your graduate education, etcetera. You said you were born in Louisiana and grew up there. Did you go to college in Louisiana?

Hathia Hayes: Uh.. Louisiana Tech was where I went for undergraduate. Worked in the library as a library assistant for 50 cents an hour. Met Andrew in the library.

Riggins: Really?

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, we working with uh.. he was a mechanic, and met and worked on the uhm.. humanities librarian's car, and he had come in to have a chat with her. And there I was under the counter cleaning out old fines, because we were moving the library to a new building, and there was Andy. So uh.. actu-- he was doing his undergraduate at uh.. Louisiana...

Riggins: Were you in the same department?

Hathia Hayes: Education. He was secondary math, and I was elementary ed.

Riggins: You hadn't met in class or anything.

Hathia Hayes: No, hm-uhm, just one of those curious things that happened.

Riggins: So he was secondary math, and you were elementary, and (inaudible).

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, I mean, at that time you just got a K-8 certification in elementary. So you weren't specialized undergraduate to a particular field. Yeah.

Riggins: So you met there, you were both students there.

Hathia Hayes: Right. Andy was from Georgia. And so being southern, I felt like Andy really needed to know my family, and my family needed to know Andy. So we went to Georgia to Albany, which is where Andy- Andy's from, and actually taught school there for four years. But during the summers we went to-- back to Louisiana tech for the master's degree. I did mine in elementary ed, and Andy was working in uh.. I think it was secondary math. I think his- I think his degree, yeah, I think that's right. And uh.. when we finished those degrees, we went to uhm.. Auburn and took some classes, and actually were enrolled in the doctorate program there. And then Andy took a graduate class from University of Georgia in the field, it was a field-based course. I think it's research or something like that. And the professor was so impressed with him that he wanted to uhm.. encourage Andy to transfer to University of Georgia for the doctorate, would get him an assistantship. Well, the first year we worked as a teacher we made $4,000 a year. And when we went to University of Georgia, this was uh.. Title 3, IDEA money, I guess, to get teachers and educators to go to universities, they paid us $4,000 for 20 hours of work a week! And we just thought that was...

Riggins: Plus you got your tuition paid for by the state.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, so.

Riggins: You just thought, that's a great deal!

Hathia Hayes: I mean, it was just unheard of! So...

Riggins: Well, that just proves that money is important for recruiting good graduate assistants. They have to live, graduate assistants and graduate students.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, yeah. But it was just such an opportunity, and so uhm.. I thought if Andy was gonna go for the doctorate, why shouldn't I? And, because he would be studying all the time, and you know, in school and whatever. And I thought, well, maybe I-- maybe this is the chance I should have to, you know, do that at the same time.

Riggins: Was that your thinking for the master's degree also? Or was it that you always knew you could get a masters?

Hathia Hayes: Well, not always know, uh-uh. Uh.. but you know when you uh.. graduate undergraduate, you- you think you know how to teach. And then when you teach, you still have lots of questions. And so after I taught about-- I don't know, maybe a year, I thought, "There's some things I need to go study more about, because I just don't get it."

Riggins: What were you teaching? What grade?

Hathia Hayes: Elementary, uh.. sixth grade. And uhm.. I had student-taught seventh grade, but I actually taught elementary school sixth grade, and then later fifth grade. But uhm.. so we went back to Georgia, I mean to uh.. Tech for a masters in the summer. And uh.. then we would take one class a semester. Some at Auburn and some at Tech, but mostly uh.. Tech. But then we'd do, you know, just move to-- back to Rustin, and went to school there, and took a full- full load. So I think we finished maybe in two- two summers, and you know, three years or something like that. So but then when we came to uh.. Albany, uh.. at the end of that masters study, and Andy got this chance to work on this-- but see he- he had an opportunity to be an assistant principal, because uhm.. oh, I don't know, maybe it's the first or second year of teaching actually, and he didn't have the credential. So he was having to go to school to get that- that uh.. that credential. And that's how we got into a doctorate level study. But I think you just uhm.. you know, if you really like the work you do, you want to be good at it. And so you're constantly uh.. wanting to do the next thing and the next thing.

Riggins: Interesting.

Hathia Hayes: So we decided when we finished the doctorate-- and this is kind of a little side story, but it's-- it just kind of tells you how- how things develop. We decided that we should give ourselves a present.

Riggins: While you finished your doctorate, first, at Georgia?

Hathia Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: Was then in Athens?

Hathia Hayes: Athens. And so what we did was uh.. we- we thought well, what could that be. And we said, "Well, we think we should buy a piece of sculpture." And so uh.. we went all over Athens, all over Atlanta, galleries, shops, everything, looking, looking, looking for a piece of sculpture. Just couldn't find anything that was just the right thing. So finally we went to Ann Jacob's gallery in Atlanta, and just kind of as the last place to look, and- and Ann said, "Well, I don't have any of this artist's work. But if you really want a fine piece of sculpture, what you should do is go call Stefan Thomas, and call him and ask him if you can't go for a visit." Well, Stefan and his wife, Sarah, and their children lived at Stone Mountain. He had about 50 acres of land; absolutely beautiful! And he was uh.. an immigrant from Germany, been in the States since his youth, 16. And he had wonderful sculpture, great artwork. And so we bought-- actually what happened is he invited us to come back the following Saturday or something. And Sarah cooked lunch, and we looked at art all day. And we wind up buying three pieces of art. And uh.. it-- we liked the family, we loved Stefan and Sarah so much, and the artwork was so powerful to us that we just kind of, what I would say, kind of had a wish list. There was a Hathia wish list, and an Andy wish list, and there were things we both really loved. So we just paid him for art, you know, by the month, and you know, we really continued to do that for years and years-- I guess 30 years or more.

Riggins: Really?

Hathia Hayes: But that kind of uh.. was a trigger I guess for developing that side interest in art.

Riggins: I know you both are known for that. Very well known for your vast collections.

Hathia Hayes: Well, you know, when Andy and I chose not to have children, and when you're both in education, you're both really immersed in that, you really need to talk about something besides work. And so art was one of those things that really captured our interest and attention, and were common interests, and so that- that had uh.. us going to a point where we hung a lot of the art that we owned in the Watson School, and uhm.. well, in the King Hall, in the education building. It just-- you know, we were just working so hard, we just liked to be surrounded by pleasant things, and we wanted the atmosphere to feel like this was a place people had high value for, and really appreciated. And so the art just kind of crept in there as sort of a personal interest. Uhm.. but I guess a thing to mention about the department-- I think I worked there a year, and then Roy asked me if I would uh..-- I may have-- I forgot whether it's a year or two years, but at some point there was the possibility of dividing into two departments. Let's see, we recruited-- I forget the scenario, but either we divided first, and then recruited, or recruited and then divided into two departments. But we recruited uhm.. Jim Applefield, Grace Burton, Noel Jones, Brad Walker, Marcee Steele, Lou Lanunziata-- uhm.. who else am I missing? Uhm...

Riggins: It's a big number of people, trying to think of the people I've interviewed.

Hathia Hayes: Yes, yes.

Riggins: Of course a lot of the key people were already there.

Hathia Hayes: Right.

Riggins: Tobias (inaudible). I can't remember.

Hathia Hayes: But that- that was kind of, as I would say, a "next wave" of faculty. And one of the things we really worked very hard with is, we felt like if we were gonna develop a strong program, we needed to recruit people who wanted to do that work. And we needed to recruit people that uhm.. we could get along, you know, that it could be a collaborative team effort.

Riggins: Who were interested in being part of a growing place, rather than just plugging themselves into some place that's already established and doing their things.

Hathia Hayes: Right.

Riggins: Takes a certain kind of commitment and collaboration.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, yeah. And it takes uh.. people who have worked in some different kinds of arenas to know what you need to do. And Roy was really big on education not having uhm.. educate by story, if you know what I mean. You know, a lot of times uh.. teachers would tell stories about what happened. So- so therefore, "Don't do this, do this."

Riggins: Kind of anecdotal.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. And his idea was, we're not just gonna have general education classes where teachers talk about their experiences, 'therefore I learned this; therefore you should know this too.' So his idea was that educators should be well-grounded in their content. And so, we would recruit people who were knowledgeable in content areas. So who had degrees like in math, Grace Burton, for example, Noel Jones, in curriculum and in literacy. Uhm.. Jim Applefield in early childhood education, uh.. and in psychology. And so, you know, we- we thought about methods courses and course content in Andy's case, uhm.. and instructional design and uh.. tested measurements and research. So we were looking for expertise in content discipline with- with degrees in credentials and that, as well as education methodology.

Riggins: Did you mention Lou Lanunziata?

Hathia Hayes: Lou Lanunziata.

Riggins: Is she still there?

Hathia Hayes: He's-- it's a guy. He's still there, and his uhm.. area is behavior disorders.

Riggins: Lanunziata.

Hathia Hayes: Lanunziata.

Riggins: How do you spell that?

Hathia Hayes: L-A-N-U-N-Z-I-A-T-A.

Riggins: Want to make sure it gets right on our transcription.

Hathia Hayes: Right.

Riggins: Yeah, so that idea was to have people that were well-grounded in their...

Hathia Hayes: Discipline.

Riggins: Discipline, and in methodologies.

Hathia Hayes: Well, most of us knew that in-- on a lot of college campuses, education didn't have a very strong reputation. You know, they always-- the idea of education was, it's an easy thing. And from the get-go our concept was, we needed uh.. very well-grounded people in a content discipline that could uh.. speak with authority and with good-- and be respected by arts and sciences, faculty members. And so that's kind of an intention that Dr. Harkin had, and that was one of the criteria we used to uh.. select uh.. the School of Education faculty. So when we di- uh.. divided into two departments, there was the Department of Curricular Studies, and Specialty Studies, Roy became the dean, and Roy asked me to chair the Department of Curricular Studies. So I uh.. was just kind of amazed at that. But I had- I had chaired the-- a committee, uh.. the previous year, so I guess he had some sense of what I could do. But it was not a job I really sought, or-- in fact, I took all the committee notes, and everything, and I said, "Roy, I don't know who you're gonna tap to be chair, but I think they might want to have notes and whatever." And he looked at me and he said, "Well, Hathia, I think that should be you." Well, I just-- I was just absolutely blown away. So uh.. I did that chair's role for 11 years.

Riggins: Really? That's a long time.

Hathia Hayes: That's a long time for a chair. Uh...

Riggins: Over these professors who are experts in education. I'm sure they- they gave you some challenges, but it was probably...

Hathia Hayes: Well, I think because we were of a like mind, and very gold- gold standard, and we really liked each other, that we- we had very deep and rich conversations about the program and how it should be designed and laid out, and what we could do and not do. Uhm.. and Roy was a leader that, he would help you frame a direction, but then he would let you go with it. And for me, that was just wonderful. Because I thought, "I should do it, and I-- and if I couldn't do it, I should learn how to do it." And uh.. he was very, very supportive of that. So I think I must've been the only woman department chair on campus. I think I'm...

Riggins: Probably. Was it soon after you got there?

Hathia Hayes: '78, maybe? So, you know, there weren't a lot of uh.. I- I just, that- that-- I don't-- we didn't meet a lot as department chairs, you know, with the Chancellor, or Vice-Chancellor. But uhm.. it uh.. it seemed like to me that that's what I remember. Now, part of what we were trying to do was- was really go theory to practice. You know, in terms of methods and experiences for students. And one of the things that we wanted to do was to have, as a first experience for elementary majors, a tutoring of a single child. And the idea of that was that once you take your sight courses in education and you're really right before taking methods in how to teach, we felt like you-- a student would profit from trying to guide a student's learning in reading and math, and one-on-one, before you start looking at how to work the whole-- a small group or how to teach a whole class. And that that experience should be supervised. So uhm.. we thought well, what we'd like to have is some kind of lab on campus, in the King Hall. So we thought, "Well, what should it be?" Well, we had a special ed program, we had an elementary program, and I think at that time I think it was a K-6 certification, or it might have been K-346, you know, so that's-- and then we had the secondary which is specialty studies administering. So what we were thinking about was, okay, in our department, we're small, we don't have big numbers of students, we don't have big numbers of faculty, what would be manageable? So I had uhm.. worked in a lab at University of Georgia, and I knew how we set that up. So what I did was I, you know, did the research to say, "What are some different configurations of labs uh.. in different universities?" And I went to many different states and actually looked at labs and interviewed people. And I came back to the faculty and I said, "Let me tell you what I'm finding out. Some people have a math lab, a science lab, a social studies lab, a reading lab. But they all-- if they-- even if it's a big university, they compete for funds. And they also are very uhm.. I want to say they- they just think about their discipline. And the advice was however you start up, will be the way you'll be. So be sure that you want-- h- however way you decide you want to be, just know it's going to be very hard to move away from that.

Riggins: From the traditions that were set up.

Hathia Hayes: Right. And one of the significant things at that time was there wasn't any tradition for that, so you could do it any way you want. And Dr. Wagoner and Dr. Cahill were in the leadership positions for the university, and they really worked closely with Roy to say, "Okay, whatever, whatever." And because there weren't so many policies, and so many procedures, and so many regulations, you could...

Riggins: Had you been through accreditation at that point?

Hathia Hayes: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Riggins: For the um...I guess, as a college.

Hathia Hayes: Uhm hm, NK or SACS accreditation. So uhm.. we just thought, well, let's see what we could do. We met-- the faculty and I met, and we just sort of said, okay, what- what's the best take? And what we came up with was the education lab. And uhm.. Dr. Cahill was adamant. He said, "Now, let's be clear. This lab does not compete with the businesses in the community that tutor children. This is a lab that is set up for the education of college students in how to teach. So from the very uhm.. early design stages, the idea was, the lab was designed to provide supervised experiences for uh.. prospective teachers-- at that time it was undergraduate-- in how to work with children in reading and math, who were seeking certification or, you know, degrees in elementary education and in special ed. So, well, in fact we started out with K-8 certification, so you know, we did work with some uh.. mid- middle grades, or junior high kids. And we really wanted to-- conceptually, we wanted to have the special ed and the regular ed teachers together, working with kids to- together. Meaning in the same room, or at the same place. Because we felt like uhm.. special ed teachers and uh.. regular ed teachers needed to know each other, learn how to work together, and we all needed to be able to work and accept any child. And that was a big- big influence in that was Eleanor Wright. She- she really uh.. said, "You know, this thing of special ed over here and regular ed over here doesn't serve uh.. either student population or either program well." So we started out with a concept of inclusion. And over the years, we have really stayed with uh.. with the lab as an experience. And even over all the reviews that we've had with different uh.. professors coming and looking at what we were doing in literacy, for example, uhm.. we felt like the Ed Lab was a very strong experience for our students. It's the first time they had to make a lesson plan that they taught. And then learn from it, and you know, get feedback. So the Ed Lab uh.. has continued over time. And there was a time that, you know, there was a big push to put uhm.. dismantle it and have all that tutoring in the public schools. And we, we just felt like, we could offer that as another possibility. So they could tutor what we called out-of-lab, uh.. like for non-traditional teachers, or uh.. students. But we didn't want to give this up, because we thought it was a very strong uh.. component. And uhm...

Riggins: What are some of the advantages of having a lab-- do the faculty members watch for...

Hathia Hayes: Well, the Ed Lab staff is responsible for the- the monitoring of that uh.. experience. And then they work with the faculty members in terms of what are the issues, or what are the things that're coming up that need to be addressed in the classes. So we went from requiring the tutoring as part of a class, to adding a seminar that the students got credit for, and then that kind of gave them some additional support in making their plans and selecting resources to teach with, and that kind of thing.

Riggins: Is it required for majors?

Hathia Hayes: Uhm hm, it's where everybody takes uh.. elementary uh.. it's a reading foundations course, and a math course, math methods. And they tutor in the lab in both of those courses. And uh.. in special ed, they uhm.. special ed majors took those two classes, and then they had a special ed diagnoses course. And so they also did the diagnostic work on a special needs child through the lab, and also tutored. So...

Riggins: Who is it staffed by?

Hathia Hayes: Uh.. practicing educators. Well, usually it was a retired teacher or- or it could be uhm.. an educator. Barbara Honchell was that. Karen Wetherill was an Ed Lab director. I was after I stepped down from department chair. Right now it's Adelaide Kopotic, who's a retired principal. Becky Walker works there, who was a re-- uh.. an elementary teacher. Uhm.. we've just hired a new director, uh.. Pat Fenton who's reading supervisor from Brunswick County, who has experience across many states. So we've always tried to have the staff being someone strong in reading, someone strong in math, someone strong in special ed. So we have graduate assistants and- and a secretary that works there. And wonderfully uhm.. John Stike has uhm.. given the university a gift that allowed us to name the lab for his mom, Betty Stike. And so we are just real pleased with that connection, because Betty was on the faculty when I came. So it's been wonderful to see that uh.. growth and development over time.

Riggins: That's exciting.

Hathia Hayes: But the internal, the content of that experience continued to be a thing that faculty worked on, you know? And we met on and said, "Okay, how can we make this experience deeper, richer, better? You know, what do we need to- to grow and develop this uh.. Ed Lab?" But a second thing that happened when I was chair was, Don Stedman was the Vice-Chancellor for Education in the uhm.. university system. And he developed the idea that programs and education could write a grant for $30,000 to improve their practicum semester, student teaching. So every university could write their grant in whatever way they wanted it to uh.. however they wanted to improve their practicum semester. And so I wrote the one for uh.. our department. And really uhm.. you take-- you know, because I'd been so much in public schools, I had a good sense of, you know, that public schools and universities needed to be connected in some different kinds of ways. And so Noel, and Brad, and Grace, and Eleanor and I, we just all kind of worked it out. You know? Had a plan. And uh.. there-- then because it was a good idea, and- and you wrote for this grant every year, I forgot how many years we went for it, but maybe three to five years, we did-- we got this grant. He established a uh.. UNC system committee or group, you know, to kind of share what they were doing. And so we all learned from each other. You know, we uh.. we'd all- all of the coordinators of this uh.. practicum group professional development system is what it's come to be, got together and we'd share what we learned and how we learned it. And uh.. what the dilemmas were. And then I was on that com-- that uh.. university system committee to kind of take this forward and get a director for that uh.. program. But then, you know, you get to a point that you think you know, and you think you're really good at- at your design. So we began, several of us at ECU, Charlotte, and UNCW to- to name two other institutions, we wrote proposals, and we presented all over the country. And you know, went to Association of Teacher Educators, and AERA, and different places. Well, you know, the more you talk about what you do, the better you understand what you are good at and what you don't-- what you're not good at, and you learn from each other. And so we would come back and fine-tune and make it better, and make it better. And at the same time we're meeting with public schools to say, "How can you help us with this? What're you willing to do?" And we did some piloting in there. In Brunswick and New Hanover and Duplin. And we would, you know, the teach-- for- for just to give you kind of a concrete example, we went to uh.. we were working with placing student teachers in- in a school, kind of in a group, like six or eight in one school, and one supervisor, university supervisor, going there. And we- we would have that in the fall and in the spring. Well, the teachers got to the place they were just worn out with that. And so I s-- they said, "We don't want to have student teachers anymore." And I said, "Well, let me come and talk with you about that." And the teachers said, "We just can't do this." I said, "Well, you know, we can't not have students have any practicum. What will it take for you to stay the course with us?" So they made a list, you know, they wanted a certain amount of money, I think $500 a semester, they wanted uh.. to have student teachers one semester, but not two. Uhm.. they wanted some planning time. Uh.. and we just did-- we just went back and said, "Okay. Let's see what we can do?" And so the relationship between the public school people, and the university, you know, particularly in our department, was really very strong in trying to work out a system and a plan that covered the standards that we had, but also was practical for what the schools were able to do. So this was all before any state testing, you know, and all that kind of uh.. empha- emphasis in schools. But I say that because uhm.. we-- when we uh.. Duplin County, Brunswick-- New Hanover, I guess, I don't- don't remember New Hanover people-- but we went to ATE, and presented uh...

Riggins: What does ATE stand...

Hathia Hayes: Association of Teacher Educators. They had a uhm.. an award for outstanding uh.. education programs. And we applied for that. And so we did our homework on- on presenting what we were doing. And actually went to everybody's presentation that were competing. And I mean, we knew that we were the best. And we did-- we did...

Riggins: The dedication that was involved.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, we did-- I mean, we didn't-- we were runner up for that. But uh.. and, you know, the dean's office has a plaque that we won for that. But I felt like uh.. you-- it didn't matter to me whether we won or not, it mattered to realize that we had something very unique here, that was really, really solid. And so uhm.. that really grew over time to become our professional development system. And Bob Tyndall was dean, and he really put that so that it was part of the institution, not just a project, which it started out to be. And now it's become the professional development system. And it is uhm.. I think it's a11 different school districts that we work with.

Riggins: That's the amazing thing, that it grew out of a small thing. We have information about PDS in archives. Eleanor Wright is great about getting us all kinds of information in archives.

Hathia Hayes: Right.

Riggins: Relating to literature in school-- that is an amazing story. Takes some time, planning, and commitment. Seems like it happened, as you described the Ed Lab, in a very orderly and powerful way, that that paid off. It may have taken a little while to get it going.

Hathia Hayes: Well, it was- it was another time in the history of the university where the barriers were not really great. I mean, like, for example, we had the first masters degree on- on campus. So you just sort of figure out what you want and how to go for it. And you just problem-solve it, and- and make it better and better, and you create some different...

Riggins: Like, what was the first master's degree that the school would...

Hathia Hayes: In elementary ed.

Riggins: Elementary ed? Were you involved with that?

Hathia Hayes: That's when I was chair.

Riggins: Yeah? Okay.

Hathia Hayes: So I mean, it was a real exciting time for me, because I- I liked development; I like helping something grow. But I was never of a mind that it was mine. My whole philosophy of leadership is that you bring the best people together that you can, and you get, you work at something to get a common understanding of what you want, and how you're going to pro- proceed. And then you work at making it work. And that's really what I did those 11 years.

Riggins: You set the tone, and you set the standard?

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, but- but it wasn't like I did it all by myself. Dr. Harkin was there, and it was- it was just a really fun time. A lot of- a lot of ideas, a lot of good thinking, a lot of good camaraderie. Uhm.. a- a group ownership of what we did. A third example I could give you would be, Dr. Noel Jones was uh.. really-- Noel's a brilliant person in curriculum, excellent uhm.. reading educator. And he came to me one day when I was department chair, and he said, "Hathia, I've been reading about something called reading recovery. And I think we need to learn more about it." I said, "Well, Noel, what is that?" And he said, "Well, it's an intervention program for children in-- for uh.. kindergarten who ha-- are not making progress with typical reading instruction." So I said, "Well, uhm.. find out more about it, and let's see what it is." And so he did, and he came back, he said, "Hathia, we have to-- we- we should really consider this." So Paz and Brad and Noel and I, went to Ohio State University. Now we w-- met with Roy and said, "Roy, we want to find out about this, and- and can you help us go?" So he found funds for us to travel. We-- the four of us went up there, spent three or four days at Ohio State, and came back and said, "Okay, what do we think?" And collectively we felt at that point in time, it was the best reading instruction we'd ever seen. And that we should have that knowledge and expertise in our programs. So Noel went uh.. wrote a grant with C. S-- C. Smith Reynolds, $50,000, to pay for his study at Ohio State. Now this is a guy who has a doctorate, Stanford.

Riggins: Right.

Hathia Hayes: Uhm.. Harvard masters.

Riggins: (inaudible)

Hathia Hayes: He's- he's a very well-educated person. But he went off to Ohio State, stayed a year, and he tutored children as part of his training, as well as uhm.. oh, took classes himself, and learned how to be this teacher leader. And so that has grown as part of what we believe is a real uh...model program for how you educate practicing teachers to work with students with real problems, and create a support system for teachers so they can continue to grow in learning practice.

Riggins: And then we became a sight for reading recovery.

Hathia Hayes: Exactly.

Riggins: It became huge here, and Noel became a leader in that. And it's still ongoing.

Hathia Hayes: Yes.

Riggins: Since his retirement, right?

Hathia Hayes: Yes.

Riggins: So it is amazing what, you know, if people come to you, your approach as a leader was to say, "Well, carry it forward, come back, report to me, you know, keep in touch. But sure it sounds great." Not to point out potential problems.

Hathia Hayes: Well, and see Eleanor was big in special ed and had a big history of education, special ed education in the state. So she was doing that kind of thing in special education, and really had the expertise and wanted to kind of spearhead that. So, Paz had similar things with early childhood. So, when you had that strong uh.. uhm.. a faculty, what you really just try to do is support their growth and development. And really, at that time in the history of the university, the big emphasis was on teaching. There was not the big thing about writing. That was- that was not what-- so there was no tension between where do you spend your time.

Riggins: Right.

Hathia Hayes: We- we all came onboard to develop the program. And that's what we did.

Riggins: Uhm hm.

Hathia Hayes: And that's what we were supposed to do. That's what we were about. So it wasn't until some years later as the university matured, and uhm.. I mean, it's not that people didn't write, it's just what- it wasn't uhm.. a major thing in terms of expectation.

Riggins: People were-- all these ideas people had-- were relating to the curriculum, and to...

Hathia Hayes: Right.

Riggins: Paz had a learning center for a while.

Hathia Hayes: Yes, she did. Yep, she's amazing- amazing entrepreneur.

Riggins: Alright, that was after, but she started off with-- in the School of Ed-- I forgot what it was called, but it was an early childcare center.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah, yeah, uhm hm.

Riggins: And then she's really-- on her own time did the, did the learning center.

Hathia Hayes: And got a lot of training grants related to that. And uhm.. uh.. just continued to be a real force in- in uh.. children's literature. She- she was a great professor in that. And so, you know, to me, the whole job of the chair was to support the growth and development of program, and the development of faculty expertise. I mean, that's- that's really what I thought a leader should do. Uhm... so, I never was really, you know, hung up on being the 'keeper of the keys,' I guess. You know, I felt like if it wasn't 'ours,' then it wasn't going to be any good. You know, it really needed to be-- we needed to study it through. I did a lot of studying about possibilities and presentations about "What about this?" And-- but the faculty were so good to say, "Well, let's think about this." Let's go talk to the public school people, see what they'd be willing to do. Let's figure out how we work." And so part of the reason the Watson School has the reputation it does, is that we were always very genuine in our conversations, and inclusion of public school, and in valuing of public school people, for what we were trying to do in education.

Riggins: I'd like to change tapes. But thank you very much and we'll continue with this same interview in a moment.

(tape change)

Riggins: This is Adina Riggins, University Archivist, and I'm here with a very important guest, Dr. Hathia Hayes, who is continuing her reflections on the growth and development of Watson School of Education, UNCW Department of Curricular Studies and others during her 30 years here. Can you believe it's been 30 years?

Hathia Hayes: (laughs) Slipped up.

Riggins: Just kind of snuck up on us. Uhm..

Hathia Hayes: Well, I'll tell you a funny story.

Riggins: Yes, please.

Hathia Hayes: Andy and I were working in-- with a comprehensive school reform grant, and last week we were visiting a school and we interviewed teachers as part of this evaluation. And I'm going around, and I always ask the teachers, "How long have you been in education?" you know, "What's your history with this school?" And, you know, the teachers went around, one year, three years, 13 years. And so I said, well, to put things in perspective, Andy and I have been in education for 44 years. And this young man who this is his first year of teaching said, "I can't even imagine that." I said, well, you know, you don't start out to think it's going to be 44 years. It really is uh.. one year at a time. And you start with doing work and you look up and your whole life is-- has been education. And uh.. so you know, you don't have to look way out there and say I'm going to stay for 44 years. You just-- opportunities come and you just do the next thing and the next thing. And you look up and it's been 44 years. So...

Riggins: Seems like you've been so busy and things have been changing so much that it doesn't seem like day in, day out, you know?

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. Yeah.

Riggins: Oh my goodness. That is a good story (laughs); 44 years and there you go. Uhm.. we were discussing some of the things that happened while you were chair. There's been a lot that was going on. You were chair for 11 years until uhm.. I guess that would have been about 1989 or so? Uhm.. and then, is that-- Eleanor Wright was chair for a little while, wasn't she, or...?

Hathia Hayes: She-- let's see. I think she was next and then Grace Burton [ph?]. And then uhm.. then we went outside and MaryAnn Davies was the chair. And then uhm.. Edna Collins [ph?] stepped in as interim chair and Jim and Brad and I agreed to do assistant chair, because Edna, you know, just really didn't know public education like she knew early childhood. And she just wanted to do it for a year. And so she said, "I'll take that if other people will help." So here you go. Back to the same nucleus of professors. And I mean, we just all said well, sure, yeah, we'll be glad to do that. And uhm.. I think it's uhm.. it's just another indicator of, you know, the commitment that that early group continues to have and the influence that it has in maybe why and how we've gotten to where we are now.

Riggins: I think so. It definitely had a huge, huge impact. I mean, it just determines in a lot of ways uhm.. why the school is the way it is now. Absolutely. I was going to ask you uhm.. since you seem to have affiliations at the library, what was your interactions with the library over the years? What was your experience, for example, with the curriculum materials center? Did you interact with that at all?

Hathia Hayes: Well, yes indeed. Uhm.. of course, being a litera-- when I went for the doctorate, I thought, "What am I going to study?" And there are two possibilities. I could either be a librarian or I could be a reading educator. And it was really a tossup. At that time, though, librarians were keepers of the books. They weren't educators in the same way that they are now. And so I really opted for the reading education. So it's always been a real passion and interest of mine; high value for libraries, literacy, education. But, you know, the curriculum materials center-- well, I guess I want to say this before materials center. The library has always exemplified the same service mindset and the focus on students and helping them be good users of the library as we thought of in the Watson School. And there was always a great uhm.. of course the university faculty, you knew everybody. And uhm.. there was just good conversations, good intentionality, good help to build a library collection for education. I mean, Gene Huguelet, of course, was here then. And uh.. his wife was an educator, had-- every degree we offered, she had. Every certification we offered, she had. And so, you know, it was just a real good feeling and good connection there. Uhm.. but, the curriculum materials center was in King Hall upstairs, where the Ed Lab was. So uh.. we were just trying to do that, because we felt proximity to the materials was a real good idea for educators. So uh.. Caroline Windham [ph?] was the curriculum materials director, I guess. And uhm.. yeah, that was- that was...

Riggins: Do you remember...?

Hathia Hayes: ...I guess until the new library, when ya'll added, then it could move over here.

Riggins: Right. And Joanna Wright was the librarian...

Hathia Hayes: Right. Yes.

Riggins: ...who kind of directed it and started it up again.

Hathia Hayes: Yes. Yes. She was a special person.

Riggins: Yeah. She was passionate about this. I interviewed her just this year, a few months ago, and it was the same way that you describe the core faculty having shaped what you are today. And she really was responsible for a lot of what we are today. She's been gone for a long time, but she's-- her legacy has really had an impact. So uhm..

Hathia Hayes: I think something that would really be interesting is to kind of glean the themes across these early people, to try to say to the new faculty, why are you-- why is UNCW this little microcosm of wonderful, you know, how did it come to be that? And because I think uhm.. it was not just the School of Ed, it was many, many people.

Riggins: Well, that brings me to a question that I'd like to ask, which is: what makes UNCW unique? I think you might know, but say that you're telling this to someone who is watching this 20 years from now, or something. What is it about UNCW that's unique?

Hathia Hayes: Well, I think it's the student-centeredness, and I think it's the inventiveness of the faculty and staff to work collaboratively to create a very, uhm.. it's not just student-oriented. It's really the best educational program for students that we could imagine. And so uhm.. and it was also the interconnectedness of faculty with each other. I was talking with the Director of Student Affairs, help me with her name.

Riggins: Pat.

Hathia Hayes: Pat Leonard.

Riggins: Leonard.

Hathia Hayes: Pat Leonard and I, you know, we would always just pick up the phone and talk about issues with students. And if we had an issue, we could just work it out. And we could work it out with the student, with the family, you know, within the administration. And so there was always that problem solving.

Riggins: People wanted to get things done, you know?

Hathia Hayes: And doing-- figuring it out, figuring out the policy so that it was educationally sound and student-friendly. And I think it was that real intention. And because size didn't prohibit, you know, if you had a problem, you knew who on this campus could call to help you.

Riggins: That was my next question. Was there always-- was there-- I notice when professors-- excuse me. (sneezes)

Hathia Hayes: Bless you.

Riggins: Had to sneeze. Had taught a lot, had to teach heavy loads, taught everything, was there a feeling of being understaffed but not letting that get you down too much?

Hathia Hayes: Well, I guess everybody taught four classes. And uhm.. but early on, I mean, I would have-- I would-- it was good because I taught the students in three different methods courses. And then I was supervisor of student teaching. And that was kind of a pattern in cycle, for example. You know, they taught them in courses and then they had, you know, some sort of research project with them. So we knew students, and we-- and they knew us and there was a good rapport and respect there. And you kept that connection when you, like in education, they became the supervisors of your student teachers the next few years. So it just built that relationship over year, after year, after year, after year. And uhm.. we had very simple uh.. connections, like, there was a Hawk's Nest kind of place, people came together and we saw each other at lunch time. Uhm.. and not every day, but, you know, enough that you sort of kept up with what people-- what was going on in people's lives. Miss Wagoner, Madeline Wagoner, had-- we had a university women's club, and the women all got together, I don't know, monthly or something. We had some kind of program. At Christmas we all made homemade gifts. We drew names and we sat around Madeline's, you know, in the chancellor's home, sat around and exchanged gifts and ate each others' cookies. And uhm.. then, you know, there began to be, you know, women don't do this. We don't cook. You know, that- that sort of shying away from traditional roles of teachers-- of women in universities or colleges. And they began to you know, want to bring their own, some bought something. So it shifted in that kind of way. And then, you know, it shifted again to not just why do we have a university women's club.

Riggins: So it petered away?

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. Well, it just changed. We still have uh.. I guess it's a new professor's group that meets. But it's not just women. I think there is still a university women's group, but I've kind of lost touch with that. But I was trying to think of an example of, why the university was so wonderful is that we were small, we knew each other, and we were here because we liked teaching and we liked to work with students and see their growth and development. And we in education felt like we had real strong relationships and rapport with people in Math and Statistics like, uh.. what's-- it's not Jenny Wright for us in the math-- professor Frierson. Dargan Frierson. I mean, Dargan and Andy, for example, are really, really close. Bill Overman in Psychology, and uh.. you know, when you're small, everybody's on all kinds of committees.

Riggins: You're able to collaborate, and you need to collaborate across disciplines.

Hathia Hayes: Right. Right. And you're on all kind of search committees and, at that time, there was no idea that you wouldn't do it. Because there weren't so many of you to do the jobs that needed to be done. So, but I think the other thing that uhm.. makes UNCW is, we were able to work through uhm.. any issues of (inaudible). You know, so-- and I think the Watson School, or the School of Ed was really instrumental in that, because we worked so hard to build good relationships with public schools. And, you know, that was really the largest program here on the campus for a long, long time. But the other thing is, I think, being on the coast; if it really got too bad, just go walk the ocean. Go walk the beach and you put things in perspective.

Riggins: (Inaudible) feeling like you're overworked or...

Hathia Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: Speaking of overworked, I'm sure that you worked hard, you know, considering you and your husband are both dedicated to the profession. Uhm.. yeah, so that must have been-- you want us to do something else or talk about something else besides work. So how did you develop this interest in art and uhm.. collecting? Is that something that you've done for a long, long time or since you've become an adult, mostly since your...

Hathia Hayes: I think it was part of Mother. I mean, Mother was very, very creative, very crafty, very good art eye. She did more craft things than she did paint. But, you know, I always remember having my books from Time Life, you know, that had little stamps with the master print. And then a little message underneath and uhm.. I think I just always liked the visual arts. I'm very visual as a learner. So-- but I'm very drawn-- have always been drawn to pictures. First-- in my first classroom, I had a print, a Chagall print, over my desk. And it wasn't framed. It was just matted, but you know, and I just think it's...

Riggins: Did students ask you about it?

Hathia Hayes: Oh yeah. What's this? And I taught uhm.. sixth grade, so it was European history and you did all the integration of the arts and the culture with the historical events and, you know, so I don't know. It just seems like it's always there.

Riggins: Well, what's been your role in the arts in this community?

Hathia Hayes: Mostly appreciate and support artists through purchase of their work and attendance at their events. And Andy was really creative in bringing artists into King Hall to do art; actually paint, or do sculpture, or do uhm.. I was trying to think of the other, maybe some kind of metalwork, right there. And students could just stop and see, you know, real artists at work. And uhm.. we were trying to show that there are different ways of knowing, and there are different kinds of concepts of how you view the world and express what you see. And so uhm.. and then, you know, I've been on the Wilmington Symphony board, and Chamber of Music board, and I seem to always go from being a member to some kind of leadership role. But...

Riggins: Somehow that happens. You just start doing that.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, trying to make sure that I could help in any way to connect education opportunities for students in public schools, or at the university, with music, with theater, with art. So...

Riggins: Who were some of the people that you learned from, or that you found you had similar approaches to leadership? You mentioned Dean Harkin; who are some of the people who were influential to you while you were here?

Hathia Hayes: There was a lady who was uhm.. chair of the program at Ohio State; Martha King. She was my kind of leader. Uhm.. Gay Suppenel [ph?] at Ohio State University. Uhm.. I was part of uhm.. a women's leadership group of deans. It was not a deans' group, but it was women in leadership roles, when I was department chair. And that wasn't a person as much as it was a group of people who were thinking about their roles as leaders and, you know, what do you need to do, be like, to do your work well?

Riggins: Right.

Hathia Hayes: So that was very-- that was a significant experience.

Riggins: What did they-- what were some of the things you brought back from that discussion?

Hathia Hayes: Mostly things like, you know, women have a different communication style from men. And so, being more objective rather than personal in the way you write a letter, in the way you communicate orally. And, I mean, I'm a great hugger, shake hands instead of hug. Uh.. I'm not always good at that. But uhm.. and then uhm.. developing your own personal stance and uhm.. I think-- I learned that I could do that, and I got better at it just from thinking about it. You know, thinking about the role of leader. Uhm.. I began to do things like go to different meetings, but instead of thinking about the content, I was analyzing the way people were in leadership roles. And what was their stance? What was their personal aura, if you will. Uhm.. how did I-- how could I use those ideas in terms of the roles that I played? Because I felt like uhm.. women can and do lead, and uhm.. you don't-- because you are a leader, and also a woman, you don't give up being who you are as a person because you're in a leadership role. And you don't-- I mean, I just never thought you had to apologize for being a woman or being a woman in a leadership role.

Riggins: You shouldn't feel like you have to change your personality or change, you know, who you are?

Hathia Hayes: Well, I mean I just think if you have to give that up, that's too much. So uhm.. but I think I also thought a lot about uhm.. men in leadership roles. And the essential difference is to me, men have a history of ways of working and women did not have that same history as- as a cultural group, I would say. Our networks were all more often informal and personal, whereas men's roles were more often formal, though there was that 'Good Old Boy' network. Uh..

Riggins: Yeah, and public. That's public.

Hathia Hayes: And they could-- and they had-- even the way they dress, you know, is a standard way you look. And uh.. there was more uh.. civil patterns of communication, in terms of the work of groups and organizations, than women knew about. So, you know, part of a next step was uhm.. learn from that. Because, you know, women can be very, very mean-spirited and they can be very petty. And so if you're going to uhm.. know that that's there, but you just have to take the high road, and you have to figure out how you do that within your personality and in what the role calls for. And I really give Roy Harkin credit, because he always supported people when he placed them in a role. And uh.. he- he never uh.. in any way had any difference for me as a woman than the guys that were in leadership roles. I mean, he was very, very unusual that way.

Riggins: In that time. In that time. I did interview him before he passed away, so...

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. You know what a gentle, kind man he was.

Riggins: Yeah. Yeah.

Hathia Hayes: And his wife, Sandy was just-- is indeed still very, very dear. And that's another thing is, you know, we all kind of stay connected. You know, just talking with Betty, see Dorothy Marshall all the time. You know, she's our registrar and...

Riggins: I was going to ask you about her, but she has a leadership style for sure.

Hathia Hayes: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Riggins: Many years been a leader.

Hathia Hayes: Oh yeah.

Riggins: Talk about, I'm sure she had to maneuver around the 'Good Old Boy' network like crazy.

Hathia Hayes: Well, I mean, she was just a real professional, and what was needed. But Pat Leonard was the same kind of way. So uhm.. we had some really good-- Joanne Welsh [ph?], Joanne, Joanne [ph?], Jo, Joanne. I don't...

Riggins: What did she do?

Hathia Hayes: She was in communication arts. Communication studies. She was a-- I don't think she was department chair, but she coordinated that program.

Riggins: Okay.

Hathia Hayes: And she died of cancer some many years ago. But a very, very strong woman. Very good leader in communication.

Riggins: What was your PhD in? Was it in the curricular side or...

Hathia Hayes: Reading education.

Riggins: Okay. It was. Some of the PhDs in Education have a PhD in Organizational Theory. What is that, exactly? Is that (laughs)...?

Hathia Hayes: It's really studying how organizations are designed and how they function. The roles and responsibilities and uh.. the functions and structures of organizations. And that was a big- that was a big "ah-ha" for me. Being a woman, and being a southern woman, I was all about people, relationships, great heart. And when we started with this PDS, I was presenting at a conference. And there was this little lady sitting back in the audience, little shriveled-up person, slept through most of the presentation, I thought. And, you know, when we finished, I asked for comments or questions. She raised her hand, stood up, and she said, "You know, having great relationships and heart is only a piece of the puzzle. It's only when you can institutionalize uhm.. a program that it will live." And I went to her after the presentation and said, talk to me a little bit more about what you mean. And it really taught me, of course Andy's administration, so, you know, I've been hearing these things. But when she made that comment, it made me understand that uhm.. if you want what you have designed to live, you have to invest it. The organization has to invest in it. They have to put the faculty positions, they have to put resources in it. It has to be part of what-- how you do business. And if you can't do that, it's going to be half this project. And that was something that Bob Tyndall really contributed, in terms of taking it from a project to an institutional, uhm..

Riggins: Commitment?

Hathia Hayes: Commitment, but, program. You know, it's part of how we do business. Ed Lab, part of how we do business. PDS, how do-- this defines how we do work.

Riggins: It's not going anywhere, yeah.

Hathia Hayes: Right.

Riggins: Something that's essential.

Hathia Hayes: So reading recovery, this is how we do business. So that-- and I think sometimes uhm.. things come and go with persons, rather than survive persons, to be institutionalized. And I think that's a very unique thing. Uh.. in the wider university, just the way that we bring students on, you know, with a welcome and all the uhm.. work at getting them moved into dorms.

Riggins: Yes.

Hathia Hayes: There's no other institution that does that. Why would we do that? It's just somebody had a vision of you know, we are going to make students want to come here. And uh.. and that was the other-- another kind of little detail. When we recruited early in those years, when we recruited faculty, we would invite them in for two or three days. And we would always have them, usually in our home, for meals. Faculty would bring potluck or we'd cook. And we'd see them at a social level as well as a uhm.. professional level. And our intention was two-fold. To figure out who was the best match for us, but to have people who did not-- were not invited to take a position to think highly of UNCW, and to want to come here. And I think most people did that.

Riggins: It worked well for me.

Hathia Hayes: Served us well.

Riggins: The people who you wanted to recruit often wanted to come. Even if it wasn't the most money they were offered. I don't know if it was that factor...

Hathia Hayes: Oh, you know, the other person I didn't mention was special educator Carol Chase Thomas, who's, you know, gone on to be an associate uhm.. dean. But you see, for example with Carol, I think part of what you do as a chair, Carol was real involved, real good teacher. Excellent teacher. Real involved in consultation and service to schools. And she came for her uh.. evaluation. And I said "Carol, talk to me about where- where you see yourself in five years, because you are giving so much attention to these two areas of work, that you will not be able to get full professor if you don't do some writing. And if that matters to you, you need to think about that." And what she- she wound up doing is, she had a real good mentor in her major professor. And his advice to her was: get your full professorship, and then do the administrative work. And so she put that together for herself and, you know, she finished, you know, the work toward full professor and then she began to do these administrative roles. And so it's not been a tension for her. Whereas in my case, I was so involved in, you know, I came in 11 years as department chair, then I directed PDS and was the Ed Lab Director and taught four classes. And uhm.. then what did I do? Uh.. Andy and I for the last seven years have been-- had this grant for professional, I mean, for uhm.. comprehensive school reform. So we've been visiting schools. We've been in 125 different schools.

Riggins: In the last...

Hathia Hayes: Seven years. Uh.. you know, with these site visits. So uhm.. you know, your work just changes, and uh.. I never did really develop the mindset for writing that...

Riggins: If you're going to...

Hathia Hayes: ...was really needed.

Riggins: ...set aside this time to do...

Hathia Hayes: Because I'm-- I was such a service-oriented person, such a program development person, such a-- I really think you need to give to the community. And I spent a lot of time with that. And uh.. so, you know, you just make your life different.

Riggins: Make your choices.

Hathia Hayes: Professors these days have-- don't have the luxury of doing that. You know, so the tension for them is, how do I do all this program development?

Riggins: Right. In order to get to associate professor, they have to...

Hathia Hayes: Have some writing.

Riggins: Definitely, yeah.

Hathia Hayes: And the expectation is pretty serious that you do that. But that's also part of the growth of the university. And, you know, my big thing with new faculty is, ya'll need to think about how you can manage this so that you don't lose the essence of what's been created here. And yet, at the same time, you can uh.. deal with the new norms for professional work. So I think that's-- and then as the university grows, I mean, 2500 to 12000, you know, the problems are real different. And, you know, there are many, many, many policies and procedures and levels of organization you have to go through to do anything. So, you know, it's a different kind of work. So, anyway I thought, well, maybe I've defined what is enough. And I've done my piece and now that we uhm.. uh.. did the work with accreditation and passed with no standards not met, I though, this might be good. We could just stop, just this spring.

Riggins: Well, let's go on then to your plans for uhm.. for the future; life after UNCW. I doubt you'll be retiring and being still. What are your plans?

Hathia Hayes: Well, uhm.. Andy and I uh.. have a garden, a flower garden. And that came about because hurricanes really destroyed our backyard and uh.. a tree landed on the garage. And so we had some major work to do. And we'll do that. That's just a personal joy. Still be involved with the Cameron Art Museum. I really want to help with uh.. ARCH, which is the organization that is uhm.. working to bring a performing arts center to Wilmington. Uhm.. I don't know. Andy and I will write. We have an outline of several books based on our work with reforming public education that we began with uhm.. our work with PDS, you know, in the schools there. Continued with our friends from England who did some of that work with us. So we'll- we'll get serious about writing those. Uhm.. I imagine we'll do some work with the pottery center at the Cameron Art Museum. Uhm.. I can't imagine I won't do something-- I love to do flower arranging. I always have that as kind of a hobby. Uhm.. and I can't imagine I won't do something with literacy. But I don't know what. You know, I was thinking the other day, you know, libraries are real important places. Uh.. and so, you know, I just leave it alone for a while.

Riggins: And it'll come to you?

Hathia Hayes: Not work so hard uh.. at, you know, the organization of education. And see what comes up. So uh.. spend some time with friends. Uh.. and enjoy Andrew and, you know, just...

Riggins: And he'll-- he's retiring at the same time this year.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: What made you decide to bypass the phased retirement?

Hathia Hayes: Uh.. in for a penny, in for a pound. I'm just not a person that can have this sort of kind of work. You know, if I'm going to work, I want to make a difference. And uhm.. I think my time to make the kind of difference that I want to make is over. The new, you know, we've got what, 13 new faculty?

Riggins: Just starting.

Hathia Hayes: New leadership. New departments. It's time for somebody else to invent and take it to the next step. I don't think, you know, I'm not a person that thinks you have to uhm.. stay forever. I wanted to stop when it seemed good. And uh.. and this seemed like a right year.

Riggins: Are you two the only folks retiring this year from the School of Ed?

Hathia Hayes: I think so.

Riggins: Yes.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. Just Andy and I.

Riggins: That's all I've been informed about.

Hathia Hayes: So far that's all I know.

Riggins: That's all you've heard about.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah.

Riggins: Is there anyone that you recommend that I talk to? Uhm.. I may or may not have talked to them already. But uhm.. either from the School of Ed or elsewhere, who would have great insights about uhm.. the university, where it's come from?

Hathia Hayes: There is a person that we've worked real closely with over many, many years. Her name is Mary Dudley [ph?]. And Mary was instrumental in helping us pull this PDS off in Duplin County. And another person in Duplin is retired-- both Mary and this other person, excuse me, are both retired.

Riggins: Are they teachers or...?

Hathia Hayes: Mary was in the central office, and she worked with uh.. professional development, but with the whole PDS in Duplin. Mary is-- I'd have to-- she's working-- she's been retired a while, but she's been really big in the Baptist church. Let me see if I can tell you about Mary Dudley. (shuffling papers) Uhm.. her cell number is [omitted]. She lives in Deep Run in North Carolina.

Riggins: Okay. She may be good. As we start, continue organizing the archives, uhm.. she might be a good resource too, if we have questions about things.

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. Let me think about a second. Actually, Joyce Huguelet would be a real important person.

Riggins: Huguelet.

Hathia Hayes: Because...

Riggins: Was she involved with...?

Hathia Hayes: See, she did all these degrees over many, many, many years.

Riggins: She actually went back to school (inaudible)?

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. Here.

Riggins: Really?

Hathia Hayes: Yeah. She did her administration, supervision, elementary, early childhood, middle grades. I mean, she did many, many, many certifications. And then she worked with us, you know, in so many different ways. Uhm.. she would have a good perspective on how the program has supported and changed. There's a-- let me think of that. There's a retired principle from-- in Brunswick. She was at Leland Middle School. And her name is-- huh. Dianna Mintz; M-I-N-T-Z. Uh.. I don't know that I have a phone number for her. But uhm...

Riggins: I can get it...

Hathia Hayes: I know you could get it through the school system.

Riggins: I'm mostly focused at this point on faculty at UNCW, just because I have such a backlog. I'm doing a lot of interviews, but there's always a backlog, you know, people I need to talk to who have retired years ago and uhm.. and I'm getting there, but we've interviewed a lot of faculty in Education already.

Hathia Hayes: Let me think about-- there's a guy that uhm.. was Department Chair in Specialty Studies who is big in the Mormon church. He's now a professor at uhm.. University of- what would it be? Brigham Young.

Riggins: Oh. I don't know if I can get travel money to go there, although that would be nice.

Hathia Hayes: You could do it over the phone.

Riggins: Yeah (laughs).

Hathia Hayes: But he- he uh.. came at a really good time. Uhm.. you'll have to ask Andy a couple of people from his uh.. let met think who...

Riggins: (Inaudible)

Hathia Hayes: Who is the Chair of Psychology? Uh..

Riggins: John Williams? Well, he was the chair.

Hathia Hayes: The guy that's just stepped down. Blind, he's not uhm.. he's not altogether blind, but he's...

Riggins: I don't know.

Hathia Hayes: His wife was-- is or was in Nursing. Oh gosh, what-- I can't say his name.

Riggins: It sounds...

Hathia Hayes: Anyway, he's been here as long as we have and longer. And uh.. Virginia, who's the Dean of Nursing?

Riggins: Virginia Adams.

Hathia Hayes: Adams; she's really, really worked closely with us over time.

Riggins: Oh, okay. Good.

Hathia Hayes: Andy's worked on some articles with a guy in business. Would be interesting to see what Andy's take on that is. But uhm.. I'm trying to think if there's anybody else that...

Riggins: That's a good start.

Hathia Hayes: I'll just uh..

Riggins: We've interviewed quite a few people in Education already, so-- but I'm always hoping to hearing new names, new faculty members, or other faculty members from other departments. Uhm..

Hathia Hayes: I think Pat Leonard would be a really good person.

Riggins: Yeah. She's probably...

Hathia Hayes: Because she goes so way back, you know, with us, with Cindy Harkin [ph?], with Roy. I mean, she was here early, early on.

Riggins: And she's still here. We usually wait until after people retire just because that's when people tend to get a little bit more in a reflective mode. Uhm.. but sometimes it's hard to catch them because, you know, like you're saying, with Andrew I better catch him quickly, because after...

Hathia Hayes: Well, I'm sure he'd come, you know, in August, but it's just that we're not on campus.

Riggins: It'll be easier, certainly.

Hathia Hayes: Right. Right.

Riggins: Do you have any other thoughts or parting comments? I believe we've covered a lot about uhm.. the positions you held here and people that you worked with.

Hathia Hayes: Well, I guess the thing that I would maybe, personal closure would be the-- a few weeks ago, some of the faculty came together and did a reception for Andy and I. And it was uhm.. you know, we had food and whatever there in the Watson School building. And they did a roast that was precious.

Riggins: Did anyone tape it?

Hathia Hayes: I have a CD of it. So you might uh.. want to get a copy of that.

Riggins: Definitely.

Hathia Hayes: Because it is just so precious. But Jim Applefield started the evening off and he said "Hathia and Andy..." He just said so many nice things. And he said, "We wanted to give you something that would be real special, and we thought about a piece of art. But that was such a daunting task for us, given your art collection, that we just didn't go there." But said, "You know, over the years, you all have had us in your home so much." Like, Jim was married in our home. We had Grace's wedding reception there. All these events for all kinds of occasions, you know? Showers and- and faculty interviews and parties at Christmas and you know, it's just been a lot of that. "And we feel like that you all have made us such a family that we thought, well, what could we do that would recognize that? So we decided that we would uh.. buy each of you a bench. And on this bench would be Hathia's name, and on the other bench would be Andy's name. And we would put this outside the Watson School building so that, when people were coming in or leaving, they'd have a place to sit. And that it would be remembering all the ways that you have been there for us over the years." Well, I-- Andy and I were just so touched. I mean, it's just the perfect present. And then at the end of this CD, John Fischetti, Chair of Specialty Studies, Andy's department, was standing at the corner of the Watson School building. And he said, "Um.. this is the most fitting place for uhm.. this final remark, because Hathia and Andy have really been the cornerstone of the Watson School, and our program, and our change over time."

Riggins: That's great.

Hathia Hayes: Well, I just-- I mean, honored is not even a good enough word to express uhm.. how we felt about the comments and the remarks uh.. everybody made that evening. It was just perfectly wonderful.

Riggins: That's nice. It's so wonderful to be recognized for these great contributions.

Hathia Hayes: Right. Right. Well, I think the thing that I loved is that, people that we have really been friends and professional colleagues with over time were there. And what they said really resonated to how we would work together over the years to build this uh.. program. So uhm.. I would say uhm.. we picked a good time to stop. (laughs)

Riggins: I'm very glad you were here.

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