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Interview with John ("Jack") J. Mancock, March 22, 2007 | UNCW Archives and Special Collections Online Database

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Interview with John ("Jack") J. Mancock, March 22, 2007
March 22, 2007
Dr. Jack Manock describes his career in academia at two universities in NC: Western Carolina University and UNC Wilmington. Dr. Manock began as an assistant professor at Western Carolina University in the spring of 1968. After seven years, he became director of Research Administration there. Then in 1984 he moved to Wilmington to be become director of the Office of Research Administration at UNCW. He discusses the establishment of the progarm and working with administrators at UNCW including Charles Cahill and William Wagoner to expand research and outside funding. In 1995 he returned to his field of chemistry and set up a research program in marine ecotoxicology. He teaches upper-level courses in environmental chemistry and physical chemistry.
Phys. Desc:

Interviewee: Manock, John J. Interviewer: Riggins, Adina Date of Interview: 3/22/2007 Series: Voices of UNCW Length: 70 minutes

Riggins: Hello, my name is Adina Riggins. I'm behind the camera. I'm the UNCW archivist. I'm here today to conduct a visual oral history interview with someone who's been involved in the administration and academic life on our campus for a long time. Please, Dr. Manock, state your name for the tape.

Manock: I go by John Manock. I go by Jack and I'm a professor of chemistry. I came here originally as a director for Research Administration and professor of chemistry in 1984.

Riggins: Okay. Before you came to UNCW or even thinking about a career in academics, where were you born?

Manock: I'm from Pennsylvania, a small town in Pennsylvania. I grew up in a little town of about 3,000 people; Bedford, Pennsylvania, which is about 100 miles east of Pittsburgh called Bedford. I went to college at Washington Jefferson College and then did my doctoral work at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio. I graduated with a Ph.D. in 1969. I took a position in Western Carolina University as an assistant professor of chemistry in the spring of 1968.

Riggins: Spring of 1968, you came to Cullowhee. It must have been a different world.

Manock: It was.

Riggins: You were kind of used to the mountains--

Manock: No, it was isolated. We had visited someone there and I remember saying what a God forsaken place this is and they had one phone booth in the main part of town, no traffic lights. Then six months later, I looked and I was one. When we interviewed-- I came back and did an interview and they offered me a position as a physical chemist. We took it. We thought we'd probably be there for a couple of years, getting our notes together and starting a family and 16 years later, we left.

Riggins: Wow. What made you stay? How did it turn out--?

Manock: Well, I liked it there. It was a nice place to raise a family. It was a little much a mill town. Everybody knew what they did and what they made and you knew probably more about your neighbors than you needed to know. But we never locked our doors and we just got real wrapped up in the university. Then I guess I had been there about seven years and I was asked to be the director for Research Administration there. So that had moved me into administration and then I directed the Center for Improving Mountain Living for a while. So we really got caught up in the university. It was an exciting time to be there. We had an exciting chancellor, a man by the name of "Cotton" Robinson. He had good people around him and we had a lot of good things going on. So yes, time went by in a hurry.

Riggins: I can imagine. Was your wife involved with the university too?

Manock: She was. She's a nurse and she worked at the University Health Services. So that was all right. We went to basketball games and football games. We just totally immersed in the community.

Riggins: And your kids loved it?

Manock: They did. They didn't know any better. They didn't realize there was such a thing as a shopping mall until we moved to Wilmington. So it was a wonderful place to live and the mountains are beautiful. The only downside to it is it isolated and you do get to be a little bit too in-bred so to speak. We had enough dynamics to the university faculty that we never felt that way. I mean we had friends from all of the States. I mean a faculty community like has a real diversity choice. So I had friends from Brooklyn and Iowa and Wyoming and stuff like that. So you didn't feel like you were just in the mountains of North Carolina.

Riggins: That's how it was here too. In the early days, it was more isolated.

Manock: It was.

Riggins: --Were close-knit. That was before you got here, I guess. It expanded. Was Dr. DePaolo there at that time?

Manock: No, she came much later. Actually, I'm not sure of this. I think she was there. Let's see. She's been here five years, right?

Riggins: ______________ Going on four--

Manock: So let's say four years. She probably was here in the late-1990s. She went from Cullowhee where she'd been in the University of Sciences to Georgia to here. So late-1990s. But some of the people I worked with hadn't worked with her. So I had talked with them about her doing the selection process.

Riggins: Right. Okay. That's just interesting in the sense that you spent so much time there. All we know about Western Carolina really is, "Oh, that seems remote." Has it changed there?

Manock: Well, it has. Now, the last time I was up; I now have a student who got his Masters with me on the faculty there in chemistry. I believe now there are about - I think I'm right - that there are over 10,000 students.

Riggins: Really? That's huge.

Manock: Yes. When I was there, we had maintained about 7,000 for several years. We really couldn't seem to get above that. The chancellor that I worked with, "Cotton" Robinson, had really come there to make it a regional university and take the university to people. That was sort of his theme. So he got us very involved in outreach programs and I guess that's always been sort of an interest of mine. As I alluded to earlier, I had directed the Center for Improving Mountain Living for an interim period and that what's the focus was. It was sort of an interface between the university and the region.

Riggins: It was the center for what?

Manock: It was called the Center for Improving Mountain Living - simple. In some of my earlier discussions with Dr. Leutze it was more around that, that we tried to be active participants in the economic development and resource development. So I think that's where- I know that's where he got his clinical base, Chancellor Robinson. So we had a very successful program there and one of the things which went into my thinking about coming here was UNCA has become a regional university in the late-1960/early-1970s. So they began to have the same mission statements. It was difficult for Western to compete with Asheville for students because Asheville had so much more to offer than Cullowhee did. And so in a way, they kind of hurt some of the expansion at that time of Western Carolina with the expansion of UNCA.

Riggins: What about Appalachian State?

Manock: Appalachian State was a little different. They were about three hours away. They did compete for the same applicant pool in many ways. They had a real advantage in the fact that they were much closer to the Piedmont area. When you get to Hickory, I think you're about an hour from Appalachian and you're about four hours or so from Cullowhee.

Riggins: You're a couple of hours from Asheville.

Manock: Right, and if you're in Greensboro or Hickory and you're going to school, it's much closer to Appalachian than it is to Cullowhee. Also, they had a unique geographical situation where it snowed and skiing and we didn't. So Appalachian always, I think, had an advantage and still does. They have a very unique program, a nice college campus, everything from football to whatever. It's a very attractive program. So we really looked at a different applicant pool. We really looked at the applicant pool primarily from Western North Carolina, from Georgia, some of Florida. There are a lot of Floridians that came to the mountains in the summer. So they were familiar with Cullowhee and the programs we had and stuff like that.

Riggins: So yes, it was a different base. Well, after seven years, they were needing a director of Research Administration. How did that position come about?

Manock: Oh, you mean here?

Riggins: No. Actually, over there.

Manock: Oh, Western?

Riggins: Yes.

Manock: Well, they actually had a position. I guess I was the second one there. They had a man who was very capable, but he did not have an academic training. So the chancellor moved him into advancement and asked me if I would consider taking the position of director of research. "Cotton" Robinson had held that position; he had been dean of research at NC State. So he really wanted somebody from the sciences. I had been successful at getting a few grants from the National Science Foundation and so he wanted somebody that would serve as a catalyst in that area. So I did, and I went to Washington about once a month and talked to federal agencies. There, I was purely pre-award. I had no post-award responsibilities. I just simply served as a catalyst. I tried to go to Washington and identify where new programs were being developed, where we might tie in and then I'd come back and promote it on campus. I brought representatives from funding agencies to campus to talk to faculty. I tried to put on workshops on how to write proposals and things like that. I tried to get the faculty interested. I would meet new faculty that would come on board. I would go around different departments and talk, a variety of ideas to try to stimulate activity. As I did here, I chaired a faculty, a grant program. We gave a little bit of money to get people started, sort of seed money and that sort of thing. So I was purely what we call pre-award. Once they got the grant, then we turn it over to Business Affairs and I no longer had any responsibility for it. So it was an exciting place to be and because "Cotton" Robinson had done that position at Chapel Hill or had that position at Chapel Hill, why he kind of had a good idea of what he wanted and he was a great mentor to me. I went with him several times to Washington and visited agencies. He got me involved in some things. We had a program in Nepal through AID that I was involved with and as I said, the Center. So it was a great learning time for me from him because he was very positive and he was very good at putting together programs and understanding people's strengths and weaknesses. Probably, I've worked for three or four people I felt were really intelligent and he was one of them. He really moved us forward in a lot of ways at Western.

Riggins: You reported directly to him?

Manock: I did not. I reported to the dean, but in many ways, we all reported directly to Robinson, I guess.

Riggins: It was still small enough.

Manock: But I reported to the dean of research and graduate studies. He, in turn, reported to the provost or the vice chancellor who then reported to the chancellor. But because, I guess, of him picking me, the chancellor, and him feeling very strongly that this was an area he liked and he understood, we had a very close relationship and he didn't hesitate to call me directly, especially if something went wrong.

Riggins: Sure. I can ________________ that. So I guess you really need grants, outside funding if you're going to move forward in a research university, a research campus.

Manock: You do. They made money for expansion of programs. All the money that comes in the institution is FDE driven. So when you start talking about program expansion or research or even outreach service that doesn't come under the mainframe of instruction, then you really have to identify, if you can, outside support for that. I could spend a long time talking about this, but where you're most successful is where you have some really great ideas that maybe _______________ of views today are outside the box and you identify a funding source, either private or federal or state, that has that sort of interest. Now, we also get work which is contractual and that's where an agency says, "We want you to measure the amount of toxicity in these sediment samples" or whatever. They basically send out a request for proposals. So that's one approach and that allows you, as a person trying to maintain a research lab, an opportunity to bring in funds to your lab which you can do lots of different things with, including the work that you've identified. Then the other side is where you say, "I have this idea for a better mouse trap and who would be interested in this sort of thing?" There are agencies, foundations and federal and state agencies that had this mission statement. They say, "Our purpose for the National Science Foundation is to improve science" or National Institutes of Health to promote human health and you submit to the appropriate agency. My job is to identify which of those agencies and take faculty sometimes with me up there to Washington to talk to people to cultivate a relationship. So that gives you that extra margin, so to speak, of funds. I don't know what it is now. I'm not even sure what it was then. I want to suggest that when I first started, all money which was not state appropriated or development money came through my office. I think it constituted about 5% of our budget, maybe a little less. I just don't remember, but it was a sizeable amount of difference, particularly for young people getting started. If they don't do it right away, it's often difficult to get up again after you've been involved for five or ten years. So it's sort of like instruction in teaching. There are some people, no matter what you do, they're going to get nay. You just sort of get out of the way. There are some people that no matter what you do, they're not going to bask. So you're sort of looking at those that are almost there that usually you can help.

Riggins: _________ Faculty--

Manock: Yes, and that's where we focus. I mean you bring in some people that are really very good, very well established and what you try to do in their case is just try to not be any burden to them, just kind of make sure everything is done right, get the forms done or whatever and then just basically get out of the way. Then there are some people, it's just not their forte to get outside support. But the ones you try to focus on are the young faculty or the ones that are more establish to help them go to a more established level or, I don't know if it's a higher level, but where they get funding for their projects. Sometimes, the small amounts can make a huge difference. I remember a modern foreign language instructor got $6,000 from Exxon, which is not a lot of money, but it just changed his career to have that, to have the acceptance of a national agency, to be able to go off to conferences and talk to people and exchange ideas and it made a huge difference in the latter part of his career to have that grant. That really meant, in a lot of ways, more than sometimes you see a quarter of a million dollars come in.

Riggins: Interesting because it gave them these opportunities for publication and things like that.

Manock: Yes, and interacting with professionals, peers and having the credibility. So you can't always put a dollar sign to it. But it's an exciting position because I've always said you work with the upper 25% of the faculty, the ones that are trying to do more than just the minimum. That's not to put down those that don't, okay, because they ______________ very successful programs without outside support. But by and large, the ones that came to your office looking for assistance were wanting to do a little bit more. They're creative. They're positive. They're doers. I mean those are an exciting group of people to work with, always have been.

Riggins: Yes, sure. That's a nice way to put it. Well, what about now at, well, first say about UNCW? Do you have to, in a sense, doing more, I would say?

Manock: Well, you're asking the wrong person on that. I haven't done this for about 12 to 13 years. I expect so. Certainly in the chemistry department, we expect people to be aggressive in trying to get outside support. We raised the standard by a lot from when I first came in to the program in 1968 of what is expected. In terms of our faculty, for example, I don't know that we've hired anybody in the chemistry department in the last 15 years or so who didn't have postdoctoral experience and maybe even two postdoctoral experiences. So we expect them to hit the skids running. We expect them to come in with an established research objective, a program design, and we expect them to get outside support, or at least try for it if they need. We expect them to publish. We give them about a maximum of seven years on that. If you said to me, "Well, I'm going to write a grant, for example, at the National Science Foundation," it'll take a year before I even know if I have funding because there's a process. It goes through a review and all that. So let's say nine months to one year. So in all likelihood, I won't get the first one. So I have to go back. So now, I'm a year and a half to two years into my program, right? Now, I get funding. Now, I have to crank up. I have to get my students. I have to get a publication out the door. It's not a real long clock, to be honest with you, and we do expect that. Now, I'd say in our program, different perhaps in a Chapel Hill or NC State, we have a certain latitude in terms of "if you try." We'll recognize that. If you make a conscious effort. We do expect you to publish. We do expect you to direct graduate students. We have a viable graduate program. We need people involved. We cannot have people who do not do that. But I don't think, by any means, we would set the same high expectations you would expect at, say, a flagship research institution. On the other hand, we don't give them the kind of initial support. So it would not be unheard of for me if I went into Chapel Hill or State or Duke _____________ to expect several thousand dollars start up money to get my program going. Well, there are expectations of that and fairly so. I mean okay. So it's a different level. I think we're still of the position, and I certainly hope so, that in some of the programs like humanities and the arts and all that, we set different expectations. I mean first off, they do not have the number of funding opportunities that someone in the sciences do. They just don't. So I would hope that, and I assume that to be - it was certainly true when I was involved in those program - they don't set the expectation of outside funding. If they get it, that's great, but it's a different clientele they're dealing with.

Riggins: It's a different world.

Manock: It is.

Riggins: How long were you in that role at Western Carolina?

Manock: Well, I started in 1976 and I came here in 1984, about seven or eight years. Like I was telling someone the other day, every seven or eight years I seem to take a new job with the same employer. So I had been there and a position opened here. I applied, I guess, in actually 1983. When they contacted me and we had some phone discussions, the match wasn't quite right. So I withdrew from consideration. They hired a man by the name of Harold Keller. He came here in 1983.

Riggins: Was he the first one?

Manock: He was the first one. Then he was here about eight or nine months and left and went to Arlington, Texas. Charles Cahill called me and asked me if I-- He had talked to the relations people and they could still use the same applicant pool. He asked me if I would reconsider. At that time, Western was kind of going through a holding pattern. The chancellor was in his last year and people were just kind of entrenching themselves, protecting their turf for the next chancellor. I said, "Yes, I'd be more interested than I was the year before." So I interviewed and they offered me the position and I came down here in July. Actually, I'm sorry. I interviewed in July. I was offered the position in July and came in January. I think Charles was working for someone who had experience in setting up a program and playing the role I just described to you as a catalyst. I also had that when I came here. I had post-award administration. In other words, I ___________ cradled the grave from the initial idea to when we wrote the final report and the final physical report. That had advantages and it also had some disadvantages.

Riggins: Had you done that at Western Carolina?

Manock: No.

Riggins: Because you said it went over to Business Affairs.

Manock: Right, and I wanted that when I came here. I said I wanted to have an expansion of responsibilities. We actually had a smaller initially, but we surpassed it, but we initially had a smaller program here than we had at Western. We had 5,000 students. At Western, we had 7,000. So we had less faculty. It's interesting to me in reflecting the decision to come here when Charles called me, he said would I consider again. I contacted a friend of mine, Don Stedman [ph?], who was under Dawson at Chapel Hill, like the assistant vice president of academic affairs. Don was always notorious for one-liners. I said to him, "Tell me about Wilmington." He said, "Nothing but blue skies." He said they had been mandated to become a comprehensive university and he said you can name on one hand the number of institutions that had been given that mandate for the next five years. He said conservative administrative, no ______________, but he said, "I don't see anything negative about going there." When I looked at the faculty profiles, I suspect the same time, about 40% of the faculty had been hired in five years and that's an exciting place to be. That means a lot of young people. They learn, just getting started in their careers. So for personally myself, it was almost a match, a perfect match. So I came down and interviewed. I liked what I saw. I like Charles Cahill a lot. I really cannot say enough nice things about that man. He was always just truthful and honest with me. When he said something was going to happen, it happened. Basically, I think he said to me, "I want you running the grants office. You've done it before and so you should be able to do it." He turned it over to me. I felt like there was a real mutual trust there. I always felt that even if I made a mistake and was out there hanging, he'd hang there with me.

Riggins: He'd say, "We're in it together."

Manock: Yes, so I always felt strong about that. It was good. I should mentioned that I actually followed a man by the name of Jim Clark [ph?]. Jim had been an Air Force colonel and a very, very intelligent man. It was an easy office to move into. There were no problems on my desk. Often times, when you take over a job, you come in and there's a pile of problems that haven't been resolved, but that was not the case. I walked in and everything was in order. I just picked it up and--

Riggins: Was Eric there at this point?

Manock: No.

Riggins: No graduate school.

Manock: There was no graduate school. There was a director of graduate studies. Jim McGowan held that position. I'm not really sure anymore. ________________ I suggested there might have been five Masters programs. Marine sciences was by far the largest. Marine biology, I guess, was gone.

Riggins: Education.

Manock: Yes. I just don't remember. I know that Masters in chemistry and others have gone since I've been here. But in those days, I think there were five when I got here.

Riggins: Fewer than at Western?

Manock: Yes, it was, and one of my reservations was the fact the program was smaller here. But, it also gave you extrapolated lines and that's what we scientists always do - extrapolate trends. You can see Western was just kind of staying and UNCW was growing and sure enough, we past them quickly on all fronts. They sort of struggled over a period of the last - they're better now, but for about ten years after I left. Not because I left. They just sort of held a steady pattern.

Riggins: I see. Right, and ________________. So there was no graduate school. There was a director of graduate studies.

Manock: There was a director of graduate studies and a graduate council primarily made up of the deans, a few faculty. Eric must have come about 1990. I think it's in that area. He was the first graduate dean. He had been associate dean at Lovett, Texas. So he really was responsible for setting up the graduate council and policies regarding graduate faculty and initiating new programs. We just started growing in a lot of areas. I mean you can just see it.

Riggins: You guys were separate when you first started.

Manock: We always were separate. We never joined. There were discussions regarding that, but we never did.

Riggins: Until later, right.

Manock: After I left--

Riggins: Neil Hadley [ph?].

Manock: Neil Hadley. Pam came in under Dean Hadley and Margaret Mosson [ph?] up that way. I noted in Eric's interview, he said they thought they were separate again, but I'm not sure. I thought they were now still under Bob Roy [ph?].

Riggins: Right. Yes, I was speaking with Pam Woodlot [ph?] and she said they were separate for a while. I think they were separate for a while and now they're together.

Manock: Well, I always thought structurally, it made sense for them to be together. The vision I had was that research support and graduate studies would be closely aligned. The director for research would be involved in some evaluation of programs and faculty in terms of getting outside support. So the right hand kind of worked with the left hand. I've not said that real well, but I think administratively, I always thought that's the way it should be. The way we had it at Western I probably thought was the best in the sense that the post-award was under Business Affairs. I didn't want that when I was here. But in a lot of ways, it makes some sense because when you just have responsibility for pre-award, you don't have to say no to anybody. You don't have to wear a black hat. When you have responsibility for fiscal accountability, sometimes you have to say no.

Riggins: No to--

Manock: To someone who wants to spend money in a certain way.

Riggins: To a peon who wants to do--

Manock: Yes, something with his money, or our money. When you do pre-award, you're just out there promoting.

Riggins: You have to follow all the regulations, I guess.

Manock: You do. That really is a Business Affairs responsibility. I've seen it both ways. I think actually, if you looked at it, it's probably about half and half around the country. But anyway, that's the way we had it here. Then as I said, it was joined after I left, I think. I knew she answered to Neil Hadley right away. So he came.

Riggins: It was joined and then I think Pam said it was separated and now it's joined again. They have to figure it out, figure it all out.

Manock: Well, there are pros and cons to both. I liked having it all under me because even though you had the negative side that I mentioned about having to say no to people, also when you dealt with a funding agency, you had more of a involvement in the program and more of a responsibility because you were the authorized signature. So when you'd go talk to someone in a staff, you had a different responsibility than you did when you just were just pre-award. So I enjoyed that. I thought that strengthened that interaction. It depends on, I think, a lot on sizes. It depends on what you see. I mean sometimes, these programs are actually separated in different schools depending on the magnitude of the program and all. Whatever works well. A lot are personnel driven.

Riggins: The same with the relation with the graduate school ________________. Well, so you came and that was a great description of how you came and what you liked about it. What was it like when you came, coming from Western Carolina?

Manock: Well, the thing I noted, and maybe I was sensitive to this more so than needed to be, but I had, as I mentioned earlier, directed the Center for Improving Mountain Living. We had run into a lot of opposition from local governments regarding our role in that, a little bit of turf issue, I guess, but they resented a lot of what Western was trying to do. So when I went outside the university, the western part of the state, particularly among the political leaders, there was often times a resentment towards the university. Again, a lot was personalities and all, but when I came here, one thing I noted right away was that there was a lot of community support for this institution. When you talk anybody in the street, they just say, "I don't know what they do up there, but it's really great." It isn't quite like that, but there was a real strong ownership to the college. That was real refreshing. The other thing I enjoyed about it, it's a little bit of the grass is always greener, I suppose. But one thing I enjoyed about it too was it was part of a bigger picture. I mean I mentioned earlier that Western was- it was a mill town. I used to say we work together, we pray together, we play together whereas when you came here and you went off to your home, you're in a while different set of the community. My neighbors were lawyers and doctors and merchants and so forth. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that diversity and so I found it to be an attractive place to be.

Riggins: Refreshing.

Manock: Right. The campus itself, as I mentioned, I think, had about 5,000-5,400 students or something like that. So the administration staff was small. Needless to say, we would set policy over to _______________ over coffee. Those days are long gone.

Riggins: Yes, realizing you'd meet with Dr. Cahill or Dr.--

Manock: I'd call Charles Cahill and I'd say I have a problem. He'd say, "Well, why don't we meet for coffee." We'd sit down and talk about it and a decision would be made. Well, now, we have committees that have a report and whatever.

Riggins: Just like anywhere else.

Manock: Yes, it's just different. It's not right or wrong, it's just when you're very small, you say, "Well, can Bob do that?"

Riggins: It's more grassroots.

Manock: Yes. So that was nice. I mean I enjoyed that. You just really were on a first name basis with most of the faculty, I suspect. I mean I don't know how many we had then. We probably had - I didn't know everybody. You probably had 400 faculty, I guess, but you knew most of them. So it was different. But you could see the growth was coming. It was just a matter of when they'd let us grow. That was one of the things which Don Stedman had expressed a concern, that the general administration might not allow as much growth as you think because of some concerns about other institutions.

Riggins: Oh, right - the funding. Was that--

Manock: In some ways, that did happen with some of the concerns about Fayetteville and Pembroke. There were some constraints put on this campus. In a way, that's also positive. It's supply and demand. If you can't take as many freshmen then normally what you do is you raise the entrance requirements. So the students get better.

Riggins: That's happened?

Manock: That did happen. So that was one of the other ________________ I looked at was the entrance SAT scores. This institution was just growing up like that. I think that's a reflection of supply and demand. We can only take so many and we had more applying. I don't know what it is now, but the last tracking now, which was about 15 years ago, we had about 7,000 or 8,000 applicants for 1,500 slots. So you can be fairly selective. So do you want to take a tape break here or what?

Riggins: Oh, yes. Actually, let's take just a short break and then we'll be back with Dr. Manock. I was just adjusting the tape. I wanted to ask you also about what was it like here? Did it always feel like you were doing more with less here as compared to other places because I've heard that about UNCW? I try to step in here and I feel like I've seen it. For example, the library. We have maybe 40 full time people _______________ Appalachian State about the same number of students, the faculty. They have 65 people in the library. I feel like we do a great job here. Maybe it's sort of like you have to do a good job because there's fewer of us.

Manock: Well, I think financially or budget wise, and this isn't documented. We were always a little bit under funded on an FTE basis. Part of that reason is historical. I don't know all of it. When I came here-- For example, at Western, no matter how much money we got, we always said we didn't have enough. When I came here, Dr. Wagoner took great pride in sending money back at the end of the year. When you do that traditionally, you're not going to get as much money the next year.

Riggins: Yes, I'm surprised he did that.

Manock: That was his style of management. Again, I'm looking through a very short window here. Then, if you looked at the FTE dollar value or whatever, we were under funded here compared to Western. So those are the only two points I can compare. So consequently, you translate that to several million a year of less money. I'm sure there were other things in the mix. We were trying to do some things with the Cherokee Center, for example, which is expensive and didn't have a lot of students in it, but it was a mission statement for the UNC system to work with the Cherokee Nation. We had some economic development initiatives at Western we didn't have here, small businesses and stuff like that. All of that translates into money. So in any event, on an FTE basis, and this is what Dr. Moss and Chancellor Leutze fought to get rectified. We were unfunded in that sense. We also have always had kind of a projected enrollment and then we exceeded that. I don't know how those formulas work, but I think your base is sort of based on what you've projected and then when you go over that, you say, "Well, I have more students and I have to use the same amount of money." So there has been that issue. I will tell you from my vantage point, I have been to a number of campuses in addition to UNC system and I've always thought we were pretty well funded. I never bought into the idea that it was that more difficult for me to have 51 students in a class or 45. You just put a little more water in the soup is what I'm saying. I know it translates to personnel and all of that. I've worked with a lot of nonprofit programs and they don't have the resources we do. So I mean it's difficult for me to defend that. But then again, I don't look at the big picture either like the provost does or the chancellor does. So I don't know if we've done more with less. In many ways, when you're coming on after other programs, you don't have to make the same mistakes they've made either because you look at them and say-- I mean if you're growing and they're already there, you can just sort of follow in their wake so to speak. So you don't go down some of the paths they may have gone down that were not productive, if that makes any sense. A growing institution has some advantages. I came here and complained about too many students and not enough space. I said, well, at Western we were dealing with too much space and not enough students. I can tell you it has better problems. The dean was saying that he had a couple of faculty that has to share an office. Well, we were sharing a lot of offices at Western. We had one telephone in the chemistry department. So it's all relative. So I can't speak for the library and I can't speak for other programs, but I can speak for what I saw in my office and what I saw in the departments. I felt like we were okay. We did have that history, I thought, that prevented us from having as much dollar per FTE. We always had a few more FTEs than we had projected it seems. It always struck me, and we all do it, but as kind of a strange way to run a railroad where you project 1,500 freshmen and you end with 1,800. Fifteen hundred is based on some percentage of those who say yes. Suddenly, for whatever reason, instead of 28% saying yes, 32% say yes and now you have all these extras. But I think we've had good solid administration in the years that I've been here, conservative in many ways, which there's nothing wrong in that. It keeps you out of problems, financial programs, which can be really difficult. I mean I've been in situations where institutions really had to do some major financial cutting of things because they had overextended themselves in some areas and things didn't pan out.

Riggins: That never happened here.

Manock: It did not happen to my knowledge, or at least if it did, I didn't see much of it here.

Riggins: Did you get to know of Dr. Wagoner? Did you work with him?

Manock: Not real well. He was actually chancellor for-- When did Dr. Leutze come?

Riggins: About 1991.

Manock: 1991? That recent, or that far back? Yes. So he was chancellor for seven years. I did work with him some, but I primarily worked with Charles Cahill.

Riggins: I think that was his style. Dr. Cahill did a lot for the campus and the faculty and Dr. Wagoner was more out and about.

Manock: Yes. Dr. Cahill basically ran this campus.

Riggins: Isn't that amazing?

Manock: It was. Probably something I never thought he got as much credit for as he should have. ______________ From the athletics too, the academics. I think at one time I counted. I think there were 17 of us that included his staff, that reported directly to him. That's a lot of people to have reporting to you. So it just seemed like he went from one crisis to another. But in any event, Charles Cahill was the reason I came here. He was the one I really worked for. I did have an occasion, one or two, to work with Dr. Wagoner on things. When we got into outreach, I guess, sometimes I'd work with him. But by and large, I worked for Charles Cahill.

Riggins: How did things either in the Office of Research Administration or the graduate school when Dr. Leutze came on board?

Manock: When Dr. Leutze came on board, there was much more interest in regional involvement. Because I had worked in that area at Western some and also I had worked with the Black community here, I had occasion to work with Dr. Leutze on several issues regarding involving the Black community, as well as reaching in the-- I mentioned to you earlier about talking to him about how we'd set up the Center for Improving Mountain Living, how East Carolina has a similar thing. We kind of followed in their model.

Riggins: What got set up here?

Manock: The Division of Public of Service. He saw bringing together special programs he called in and some other programs other an area of Division of Public Service. That was his model.

Riggins: That division came under him.

Manock: It did.

Riggins: There was nothing like that before, not quite--

Manock: No, there wasn't anything like that. There was an Office of Special Programs with Jim Edmondson [ph?] and there was Economic Development under Woody Hall, Business Services. I may be missing one or two other things, but that's primarily what I can remember. Then he sort of pooled all that together all in the Small Business Assistance Center under Ted James and created a Division of Public Service and brought in Howard Atal [ph?]. Michelle ran that for a good number of years. So I worked for him on that. That was his main interest. I think he also had a strength-- I mean he had a strong commitment to instruction and teaching. I think as far as external funding programs are concerned he supported, but it wasn't at that level that perhaps "Cotton" Robinson saw it. I think Chancellor Leutze saw his legacy in international programs, which does require usually some outside support and public service.

Riggins: Outside support for the--

Manock: For international programs. I was thinking that I had worked with Tom Lawfield [ph?] and we got a program in Barbados, a faculty exchange. That was funded by a federal agency. But by and large, his focus was on institutional growth and fundraising, development and advancement, which I was not part of.

Riggins: International programs?

Manock: International program and outside public service. Most of the chancellors feel that, I think universities like UNCW and Western and East Carolina and so forth, that by getting involved in a region, you will marshal political support more. I think that's become the role model for the regional universities.

Riggins: By getting involved in the--

Manock: In the regional development. So things like public service, economic development, natural resources development and things like that, and that's what we were doing at Western. I mean we evolved out of a teacher's college there. We evolved out of a large college, it would seem. Now, we would say you have the same mission statement as regional universities. Then he brought in Dr. Moss after he had been there about a year. Dr. Moss had a real strong commitment to outside support. He had been director of ONR and still does, I guess, at some level work in that area.

Riggins: He had been director of--

Manock: --ONR, Office of Naval Research. The he went to Scripps and then he came here.

Riggins: [inaudible]

Manock: He was very strong and supportive of the program. But he had been here probably - I'm losing track of time now though. If he came in in 1992, I guess he had been about two years and I went to him and said that I was ready to do something different and I had been in this program for about, at that point, I guess, about seven or eight years.

Riggins: Yes, about time for you to change again.

Manock: Yes, that's right. So I had taken a course in Bermuda one summer on marine ecotoxicology and really decided I'd like to do that. So he asked if I'd stay another year, which I did and then I moved over to the chemistry department and set up a research program in environmental chemistry or what I called marine ecotoxicology. Then I did that for the last 12 years of my career.

Riggins: What was that like, to get back into--

Manock: Well, it was more my job. What?

Riggins: How much time did you have in Barbados?

Manock: In Bermuda?

Riggins: Oh, Bermuda.

Manock: Yes. I went right back in and I probably underestimated the degree of difficulty. The last three years, maybe the last five years that I was director of research I also taught. I taught freshmen and I taught P chem, physical chemistry and it's like one course a semester. I think the last year I might have taught two courses. But in any event, that's how I had gotten into this whole thing to begin with ____________ students and that's where I wanted to be. So I decided that I wanted to go into environmental chemistry and using my knowledge about funding opportunities and whatever, I decided to focus on pesticides that run off from golf courses story. So I got into marine pollution and marine ecotoxicology. I set up a program. I also decided to go in part because, one, we were getting ready to move into a new building and set up my research lab.

Riggins: In _______________?

Manock: Yes. And so the first course I taught as a full-time faculty member was environmental chemistry. Now, I'm teaching it and we have an enrollment of about 50 a semester, I guess. The first semester I taught it, the department head said, "I have all these people who want to take this class." I said, "Well, just a little more water in the soup. Just let them in." So the first time taught it, I had 167 people. Yes, it was bad. It was bad.

Riggins: What level course?

Manock: 300. Yes, it was probably about a page ahead of them most of the time by the end of the day. I taught in there, in a big lecture room and I had a microphone and PowerPoint. It was baptism by fire, as I'd call it. But anyway, so I taught that and P chem and then I moved more and more into the marine stuff. I got hooked up with the Bermuda Bio Station, Bermuda Biological Station for Research and for eight years, I taught a course over there in the summer, international students. I should say I team taught. So I directed it, but there were several other faculty involved.

Riggins: Did you ever go over there by boat?

Manock: No. No, I always flew. But that was a good ________________. I did that for three weeks every summer and then--

Riggins: Did any UNCW students come?

Manock: Yes. There were several out of my own classes that came. And then two years, I'd say - I was going to say three, but I'm not sure if it's two or three, we had a grant from-- I say "we." UNCW had a grant - I was involved - from I think it was _____________. In any event, they paid for eight or nine students from UNCW to come over to Bermuda and take the class.

Riggins: Wow, that's neat.

Manock: It varied. The last year-- Well, the next to the last year I taught, I had 19 students from 11 different countries. I remember discussing that about the applicant pool. Most of the time, we had about 15 students. They would be from all over. I had scholarship money and that enabled me to help some people from developing countries like Lithuania and Cuba, Argentina and some of these places that didn't have a lot of money. It was a real interesting mix. So I did it, as I said earlier, for eight years and then I also had an opportunity last year to teach a course in Hawaii at the University of Hawaii and Coconut Island to international students.

Riggins: What island? Is that Oahu?

Manock: No, it's not off Oahu. It's a program island. University of Hawaii has their own research facility called Marine Biology. I think it's Marine Biology. They have an island. I'm trying to remember that now. We did it twice. I think the first time we had 18 students, as I recall, from about 14 different countries. Then they went away and learned these principles and came back for the second part. That time, we had 13 come back. We talked about ecological risk assessments and coral reefs. So it's been exciting. I've had three graduate students every year. They got their Masters in marine chemistry or marine pollution and then I developed a course modeled after the one in Bermuda here called marine Ecotoxicology 478. I taught that for six or seven years I guess.

Riggins: If you don't mind, I'd like to pause this and switch tapes because we can go a little bit longer. I have a couple more things to ask and I'd like to finish up. One moment.

(tape change)

Riggins: This is Adina Riggins in the background again. Take two on March 22, 2007 with Dr. Jack Manock. We're continuing our conversation, and you were talking about some of your graduate students and [inaudible].

Manock: I was. I was talking about teaching and saying that-- I've always been fortunate, I think, that first off, in the last six or seven years, I primarily have had upper level classes. And so 300 or 400 level classes, and people are committed to being scientists. And so therefore, by and large, they're motivated. They're serious about what they're doing, and it's a lot different than say a 100 level class. I always say that the 100 level classes really requires the best teachers, because that's really a challenge because of the diversity of the people in your class. And I've had-- I've taught in areas I'm more interested in, which is environmental chemistry, marine toxicology, physical chemistry, so that's been really nice. And I've had good students. I've had probably, gosh I don't know. In the 10 or 12 years that I was active in research, I've probably had 30 or 40 students in the research program, what I call DIS, or honors students. And then, I had probably I guess-- I had three graduate students who finished their masters under me. I had one who did not. But I was always able to attract interesting students, and we did a myriad of problems. I've primarily been focused on concerned about pesticide use on golf courses and running into tidal creeks in the area. And that's been our focus, and we've done different things. I'll not bore you with a two-hour lecture on that, but it is an interesting problem, and the students are very interested in it. And so that's been our focus in the last couple years. I've broadened that some. As I mentioned earlier, I was asked, because of that interest and some other things, to participate in this program on coral reefs. And I really know nothing about coral reefs, except that the diversity of coral reefs is like quantum levels above a tidal creek. And we run risk assessments, and so I got a grant from the Poly Foundation to set this program up for resource managers and scientists, what I call regulatory scientists, to come in and talk about how you would assess the risk on a coral reef based upon the same model we used in our class in Bermuda and here. So that's been an interesting career, and it's allowed me travel. I've had the opportunity to spend a research reassignment at the Plymouth Domino Research Center, in Plymouth, England. And I worked and developed a close relationship with a friend who then became the chief of science for the England environment agency. And we still collaborate on a program with trying to develop we call then RAM, Rapid Assessment Marine pollutants, biomarkers for marine pollutants for developing countries where they don't have a lot of resources. And some of these things have been tried in Vietnam, Brazil, and elsewhere. That's what my last two graduate students worked on were looking to biomarkers, how you could look at a mussel or something and see if it had been impacted by a pollutant. And so that's been real interesting for me, and it's been a whole switch from my previous career. And so--

Riggins: That does sound like certainly something that you won't have pursued in the mountains [inaudible] opportunity.

Manock: I wouldn't have, and so it'-- and it's also allowed me to work with some people in the biology department and marine science program, and those are growth areas for us. So I've enjoyed that; I've enjoyed that a lot.

Riggins: Has your office always been in chemistry, or did you [inaudible]--

Manock: No. It's always been in chemistry, and I've always enjoyed being on campus. I've always enjoyed having an open door for students, and so I've really had no interest in-- and it's also the latter part of my career. I mean, if I had been earlier in my career, perhaps there had been some interest in having collaboration with people at CMS. I mean, there's a critical mass that allows you to have that would be attractive, but by and large, I've not had that.

Riggins: But you have worked with some people in biology.

Manock: I have.

Riggins: Who have you worked with? We have a faculty scholarship collection where we collect the scholarship by faculty, so I'll have to see what we have. I'm afraid we probably don't have all of your work, but [inaudible].

Manock: Oh, there's not that much. I wish. I've worked with Martin Posey. I've worked with-- well, in different ways, I guess I've worked with Larry Cahoon and Ron Sizemore. I mean, I've done different things. I'm trying to think. I had several students that did the honors in my lab that actually worked through Dr. Sizemore, for example. And they were-- we didn't do a lot of collaboration. I did do a collaborative proposal which was funded with Bob Roer before he became dean. But I guess that's it, yeah.

Riggins: Bob Roer, he is now dean of graduate school.

Manock: And doing a good job, as I understand.

Riggins: And when he went over to chemistry, was Jack Levy the chair there?

Manock: He was. I'm trying to remember that. He, I think-- he was chair, and then it wasn't too much longer because we moved into a new building and Ned Martin was chair. And so I think Ned might have been chair when I first went over, because I remember a discussion about the office, and so he didn't-- Jack had just stepped down or he had stepped down that year I came back. Because I think Ned was the first one I talked to about an office, actually and then Martin was, I think, department head then.

Riggins: Robert and yeah, the chair. You mentioned that you read Ty Rowell's oral history interview.

Manock: I read part of it, yeah.

Riggins: How did you get to know Ty? It seems like everyone knows Ty. He's the historian. He knows so much.

Manock: He does. Well, of course, we go back a long way. I mean, when I first came here, he was director of development. And in many ways, the development office and the research administration office worked together. The normal differential is if people are giving money to the university and it's not program related, it's just like here's a $10,000 donation or something, then it's development, or advancement as we call it. If it's for to support a chemistry department program, which made-- even if it comes from an individual, it still kind of goes through the office of research administration if it's for a specific program or a defined objective or something like that. There gets to be some gray areas there. But we do work together, and so whenever we would talk about funding sources, particularly when we got into private foundations, then we would share our contacts and our experience so that the right hand knew what the left hand was doing. And if I were going to Z. Smith Reynolds, for example, and they were going to Z. Smith Reynolds, it didn't look like we didn't know what we were doing, like well Ty Rowell was here this morning. And so we did a lot of that, and I just have always like Ty a lot. And so he was a person I went to when I first came here to try to learn some things about the university. And so I would say we established a relationship, and that has been maintained over whatever, how many years I've been here, 25 years, geez.

Riggins: I know. I can't believe it either. I don't know where the time goes. It's unreal.

Manock: But he is knowledgeable, and I respect him a lot. I think he's a very honest person, and I always enjoy talking to him. And so when I was looking to see the flow of these kind of interviews, I looked at Charles Cahill's, and I looked at Ty's, and I looked at Barry Bowen's, because I wanted to sort of see to cover it. And Ty is a wealth is knowledge. I mean he, probably more than anybody I can think of, probably knows the history of this institution and the players.

Riggins: Right. He's another person who could have my job, him and Dr. Adcock. They know a lot put together. But yeah, Ty's a real nice person and has helped me a lot. Well, I see you took phased retirement.

Manock: I did.

Riggins: And is this your last semester then?

Manock: No. I've got two more.

Riggins: Oh, this is your first year.

Manock: Right. I teach in the fall. That's when our biggest demand is.

Riggins: Oh, so you're not teaching this semester.

Manock: I'm not teaching this semester, so you had me on my off time.

Riggins: Yeah. I appreciate that. A lot of people say, "Oh," if they're on phase, they'll say, "Let's wait until I'm teaching." I don't know--

Manock: This interview could go for four or five months.

Riggins: Oh sure, come on back.

Manock: The fall, and I teach four courses, and then __________ in the spring.

Riggins: Four courses or four sections of one course?

Manock: Well no, I have Chemistry 377 lecture and then the two labs and then a freshman lab this fall. And it's all I do; I don't do any research anymore. And I don't go to committees, and I try to spend more time getting to know my students and probably doing things that I should have done before, making people come in to see me and sit down and find out why they're not doing as well as they should and things like that, because I don't have any other responsibilities. And I like it; it keeps you current. There is a need to keep up with things, so in the particular area I like to work in; it's changing all the time. And so I enjoyed the first semester. I hope that I do the next two.

Riggins: Oh, that's great. So it's worked out well?

Manock: It has worked out well so far.

Riggins: You have an office in Dobo?

Manock: I do. I did last semester. I don't know where I'll be this semester. They hired three new chemistry faculty, and so office space, as you know, is a premium on this campus, so I might have to-- there are some conference rooms and things like that that you can meet students, and I understand that. I mean, the young faculty need to have the offices and the labs. And so we'll just see what they have.

Riggins: It's been a change. It seems like well if you came at about '95 to the department and then they're just starting your phased, that's about seven or eight years, and that--

Manock: There you go.

Riggins: That's interesting. I appreciate your coming in today and talking--

Manock: It's been my pleasure.

Riggins: Do you have any closing thoughts, anything I may not have asked, anything to?

Manock: Well, the only thing I was thinking of, some philosophical thought for the day. I always used to tell this, and people are going to get tired of me saying it to my Cub Scouts, you want to leave the campground better than you found it. And I think that's true; I think the faculty we're hiring here, from where I sit, the young faculty coming in are very good. I mentioned earlier about the higher standard I think we set with the postdoctoral experience, and we expect them to be good teachers. And so I feel very comfortable that I've left the institution in better-- in good hands. I shouldn't say better hands, but in good hands. I don't want to see anything different than what I saw when I came here, which is blue skies and a wonderful place to be. I've always thought that I had the best job in the world. I think this is a wonderful place to work. You're around young people with great ideas and energy. And I tell my friends I've been sucking energy from these kids for 30 years. I don't know where I'm going to get my energy source now, but--

Riggins: Right, being on a college campus.

Manock: Yeah. It's a fun place to hang out. It sure is, and I appreciate the time and what you're doing.

Riggins: Thank you very much.

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